Most legal abortions are performed before 24 weeks. If a baby is born before then it has an incredibly small chance of surviving. Thus, for me, if something is not able to live by itself it can't be considered a living being and can't be murdered.

Careful...

That's a different situation. They are already living. They need drugs to help them live but they are currently a living breathing human being. Plus, in the case of pregnancy, you have a living mother in place of the drugs. There's something to be said about the rights of a woman in relation to her body.

You're not really drawing accurate parallels. A similar parallel would be if there was a man lying in hospital who needed constant blood transfusions from a living being who had to be hooked up to him for nine months. Would you be willing to do that?

Medically, fetuses would be classed as parasites because they are unable to live without the help of another organism - yes it's not a fuzzy image because they eventually might turn into humans but it's scientifically correct. None of those examples are really the same.

Also, don't tell me to be "careful". I hold an opinion which I can back up. I'm not arguing with those examples because they're not direct parallels.

I am going to be a lawyer. I love law and politics.

Just another question. Whats better a defence attorney or a prosecution attorney?

You didn't call the baby a parasite in the first post did you? No, you simply said, "if something is not able to live by itself it can't be considered a living being and can't be murdered."

You did not back up your statement. You offered a very bold, very general statement. That's why I told you to be careful. Sure, you can back it up; like you said, it's different if the organism was alive before it became dependant. You said this after I argued your post. Thus.....

You should have been more careful and more clearly defined what you meant. That is what I was getting at.

Wolf Prince....you say that because a fetus is a parasite, it isn't murder? Is that what you mean?

Now, all we've talked about is who says that abortion is murder, but who thinks that abortion should be made illegal?

I certainly don't.

I'm just noting that I can't assume that you meant something other than exactly what you said, no exceptions. I only responded to what you said, not what you might have meant.

Also the "careful" was patronising and that was my only objection to it.

Hmmm, it depends on what are of law you're in, and whether or not you are working with clienbts that are telling the truth.

Life, to me, is simply cells. My skin cells are alive. A zygote, the fertilized egg that is produced by the mother and fertilized by the father, is alive. And the cessation of life is murder.

Parasites invade the host body, they are not created by the host.

I think we are all entitled to our oppinions. In a way, I have to agree with all of our statements.

Technically, the baby is created, it is alive (to some people, its alive at different stages of pregnancy) and it has the right to live. As I've said before, what if the baby is an inscident of a rape case, what then?

See, the thing I think is good is we have to see all corners of the bread. Then we have to slap on the butter, zing, there is our oppinion.

We all have different oppinions, we are also entitled to them. We are all individuals.

The woman may be carrying the baby, but the baby is not the woman. The baby may have a different blood type, definitely has different genetic makeup, and is, and always will be, from the moment of conception, a baby. A human. Alive.

Scientists say that a baby is human, and alive, from the moment of conception.

I've seen a lot of hard facts, one of which is that child abuse has tripled since 1973. I mean, if they can murder children before they're born, why can't they rough them around after that?

The problem with using a statistic like that is that it's talking about reported child abuse cases. No one knows about the cases that don't get reported, do they? Since 1973, I would imagine, public awareness of child abuse- including awareness on the part of the victims that it is, in fact a crime, has spread. Since 1973, the taboos on sex in general that existed beforehand have started to be lifted, therefore victims are more likely to feel wronged, rather than that they themselves have done something wrong. People around the abused children are also more likely to take note of signs of neglect and abuse than in the past, due to the growth of public awareness, and would therefore be more likely to report the instance to the authorities. If anything, I would say the increase in reportage indicates a lower acceptance of child abuse.

Do you mean it has tripled by percentage of population, or just in general? Because one could take it to mean that the incidence has simply tripled, which might be a slight rise but not exceedingly drastic given population increases since 1973 as well.

I must also wonder in what sort of child abuse you mean. Do you mean all kinds of abuse, including sexual, or do you mean general household violence (which may, in fact, have deeper links to poverty, which is linked to lowering public education standards. It has in fact been suggested by statistics that it is more common for poorer men to beat on their wives and children)? Since 1973, heroin and other drug usage has increased, which would statistically have increased instances of neglect and violence. It is also important to note that technology, such as the internet and camera phones, has made it a lot easier for voyeuristic sexual abuse to occur.

Your linking of legalised abortion to an increase in child abuse is thus spurious at best.

I quite honestly don't have a ton of time to go on and on trying to convince you that abortion is murder, but there's plenty of places you can go to find the truth, instead of the crap that PP and the Media feed people. Try abort73.com

If you still insist that that is simply a biased website, all I can do is pray that some day you will stop fooling yourself, as so many others do, so that they can keep killing generation after generation of innocent children.

-Sela

Prayer is pretty much wasted on the atheistic me.

I also dislike people directing me to websites as their argument. Since every website is going to be biased it's pretty pointless.

I dislike being called a murderer. I personally have never had an abortion, or known anyone to have had one. I've said many times that the only reason I support legalising abortion is because, legality aside, people are going to have abortions and they are going to die in droves in the process. At least if the process is legal, these women will be supported and, if the health system had enough funding, might be counselled to see if abortion is actually the best option for them (and there is a hotline in Australia, but it was put together by a Catholic minister heavily biased against abortion, so it's hardly going to present each option the same), which, who knows, might be more effective in the long run than putting the unlawful stamp on it. They won't be afraid to go and seek medical attention if they end up with blood poisoning, or internal bleeding, or burns from bleach they've swallowed. In fact, they won't receive any of those self-inflicted injuries at all.

So no, you won't be able to convince me abortion is murder, sunshine, because making it illegal is more guilt-stained, bloody murder. You can pray all you like, and I'll just hope that some day people will see that so-called "pro-choicers"- those like me in any case- are trying to preserve life just as much as you.

(You know what? It feels so good to go on a self-righteous rant every now and then)

Anybody that says that abortion is a "good option" is a complete and utter idiot. In a recent study, it was found that nearly 97% of abortions are performed after the baby has both a heartbeat and brainwaves which seems pretty much like a life being killed to me. Abortion is stopping the heart of an innocent baby. Stopping the heart of any human being purpousfully is murder. Legalising abortion is less beneficial because then there are more unsafe abortions being performed and even more people being murdered and dieing. if abortion is legalized, doctors begin taking less safe precautions because now there is no need to feel worried if you get caught giving an abortion if the woman dies. and there is no such thing as the flowery term "Pro-choice". If you are Pro-Choice, you support that the idea of abortion is morally justified and are now actually "Pro-abortion".

So no, you won't be able to convince me abortion isn't murder, hun, because making it legal is more guilt-stained, bloody murder. You can be politically correct all you like, and I'll just hope that some day people will see that so-called "pro-lifers"- those like me in any case- are trying to preserve all life. Period.(yes, I can play this game too ,LOF)

(It feels good to rant about and destroy every point guilt-less liberals make about abortion every now and then.)

Anybody that says that abortion is a "good option" is a complete and utter idiot.

I think it's important that it *is* an option. No one is saying it's a "great" option for every woman who falls pregnant. I personally believe it should be available.

In a recent study, it was found that nearly 97% of abortions are performed after the baby has both a heartbeat and brainwaves which seems pretty much like a life being killed to me.

I would actually really love a link to that study. First of all because most abortions are performed in the first trimester and I'd also love to know how they measured brainwaves in an unborn fetus.

Legalising abortion is less beneficial because then there are more unsafe abortions being performed and even more people being murdered and dieing.

...

Have you ever heard of back-alley abortions? They are the more colloquial term for abortions performed in mostly developing countries where abortions are illegal. They normally consist of a woman either self-aborting inserting toxic or harmful substance up their ** to abort the child. In other cases it's someone else shoving a bleach soaked rag into the woman. I don't think I have to tell you that those are more unsafe than legal abortions. Making something illegal removes regulation and regulation is incredibly important here. Legalised abortions are regulated very strictly too.

if abortion is legalized, doctors begin taking less safe precautions because now there is no need to feel worried if you get caught giving an abortion if the woman dies.

I want you to think really really really carefully about that sentence. Really. Stop. Read it over. Think. If something is made illegal it comes under regulation. The medical community is all about regulation. If someone dies under a doctor's care there is a round of reviews and a system of checks and balances to make sure that they haven't done something untoward. With this in mind, reread that sentence and think about it logically. You're incredibly incorrect.

I was just going to read this and stay out of it, but pro-life looks woefully outnumbered.

As to the depate of whether killing the fetus is like killing a human: Personally, I do believe that a baby is considered a human being from the point of conception. However, regardless of your standpoint on that, it is a living creature. Like someone mentioned earlier, even just a glob of cells is alive. This is a very strange comparison (blame my science teacher for this one), but there is a type of jellyfish that can reverse its life cycle. It can go from adult, back to polyp, back to a bunch of cells. Anyone who's seen the adult swimming around wouldn't deny that it's a living creature, so why should that same creature in the form of cells be any different. If you're saying, well this is just a jellyfish; an animal, how about the example of a dog. Say you have a dog you don't want. In fact, say you have a dog who just had puppies you don't want. First off, the dog gave birth to the puppies AND DIDN'T GET AN ABORTION, a good example to begin with. Then, if the puppies are unwanted, they are put up for this magical thing called adoption. Are the puppies killed? No. Admittedly, the puppies could be sent to a pound where they are later put to sleep, but humans have "pounds" too known as orphanages, and the babies aren't killed in these. To those of you who think orphanages are horrible, you've been watching too much Annie. Do some research, listen to some people who grew up in orphanages, heck, VISIT one.

I don't have a link to this figure, because I got it from a friend's presentation, but I personally trust her information and please feel free to look this up if you don't. One third of our population has been lost to abortion. These could have been people that would be in your class. They could have been your best friend, your boyfriend or girlfriend, maybe even your husband or wife. Even if you don't believe that killing a fetus is murder, your killing what will later be a human. Whether or not you believe you're technically "murdering" it, you are erasing a human life. Why is it that you believe you have a right to live, and grow up to live life as a human being, but these undeveloped children don't. What is it that classifies them as not having the right to live. Is it because they're too small to be human? Heck, I'm almost fourteen and I'm not even five feet tall. Do I have less of a right to live? Is it because they're completely dependant on another human, therefore the human provider should have the right to decide their fate? What about mentally retarded people? Many are mostly or completely dependant on their parents and caregivers. Do you think we should have a genocide to eradicate all mentally retarded people? Because form my standpoint, that's exactly what abortion is: a genocide of fetuses. Why is it that we think Hitler killing millions of Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, gays, lesbians, and other minorities was wrong, but killing thousands of these fetuses, who, may I remind you, would one day be humans just like Hitler's victims, isn't?

Criticize this as much as you want. Rip apart every idea I've presented until it is nothing but a bloody, lifeless pulp. I'm not even gonna follow this forum long enough to defend myself, so what do I care? This is my opinion and I don't know where you live, but here in America everyone's entitled to their own.

Agreed. If you've never been to an orphanage then I wouldn't advocate it as a great alternative. Not only that but the planet is currently experiencing an overpopulation crisis.

re: dragonflydreamyr - I'm not going to respond to your post because you don't back yourself up and apparently won't engage in debate. Thus, there's no real point.

I don't support the death penalty, actually.(I'm pro human. You're the hypocrite. Your arguments tell me "Kill the innocent, and save the guilty!!" Does that make any sense, now?)

That's the conveniently oversimplified Republican argument.

I am pro-choice. I'd like there to be another alternative but at the moment I believe abortion should be available as a choice. I also don't believe that fetuses are alive and as such don't see it as murder - to repeat myself and be utterly clinical: abortion, to me, is like getting rid of a parasite.

In terms of the death penalty, which I don't support, I believe that "an eye for an eye" is backwards and bizarre to be using in a contemporary society. I also feel that a lot of innocent people have been killed for something they didn't do and would like to prevent this further happening. I don't support "killing" in either case, no matter how you phrase it.

Don't try to apply your morals to my beliefs when there's no fact to back any of this up.

If you're "Pro-choice", you beleive that abortion is morally acceptable and are really Pro-abortion. People just use the term "Pro-choice" to make themselves seem less like they support baby killing. And you can't compare a baby to a parasite. Parasites AREN'T created by the host. A baby is. The mother's body adapts to the growing baby in her womb. People usually don't change their body shapes when they get a worm in their stomach. And your ideas on the death penalty are absolutely correct. That's why I don't support abortion. Babies are innocent. They don't have a choice in the matters of their lives when you get an abortion. I call myself, Pro-HUMAN. I don't pick and choose.

Here's my opinion: Abortion is wrong no matter what. Period. I believe in God, so that helps me back my opinion. For anyone who does believe in God, here's howI back my statement. God creates life. It is true that a man and woman come together in a s3xual union to be able to create opportunity for life, but only God can physically create life within the woman. If the child were not meant to come into the world at that point, the woman would not become regnant. The situations that bring up pregnancy may not be our first choice, but who are we to say that God made a mistake? When asked about rap3 cases, I respond with that answer. SImpley put. The child is meant to be on the earth, so who are we to come between that? Abortion is . There is no way around it. Fool yourself all you want to, but you are wrong. Do you know how many woman have committed all because they regretted having an abortion?

I'm not going to apologize if any of this offends any of you, because, as Istated at the beginning, this is my opinion. I'm sure none of you would apologize for your opinion.

I will stand by the fact that abortion is wrong, and pray for its end. Along with all of this, I do pray for those of you who disagree with me. Whether you're Jewish, Catholic, Buddhist, or Atheist, you can still benefit from prayer.

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