Why is there so much emphasis on war and fighting in fantasy? - Too Much Magic Forum

The problem is that people keep on using stereotypes. The evil overlord, the young, unique warrior who is destined to save the land (*cough *cough *Eragon *cough), and a vast amount of other cardboard cutouts. It really becomes a problem when you have multiple people with the same personality in the same story. An example from Eragon, the titular character and Murtag, or however you spell his name. Both are essentially the same character, even to the point where they just happen to be brothers...Must...resist...Eragon...rant...!...

But yes, villains rarely do things just because they want to be evil. People who want to write a story from the villain's perspective need to make the reader understand how the villain moralizes their actions. If you can't, don't do it. I was writing a story told from three different perspectives and stopped when I couldn't quite figure out how to moralize raping a young girl. I'll figure it out someday.

#51 Jul 23rd 2007, 10:14am

iamthedave

Not everyone needs to moralize their actions. It's a conceit to assume that everyone thinks what they're doing is right from their perspective. Some people simply don't care, and do whatever they feel like doing. Maybe they're slightly crazy, or sociopathic, or maybe they're so arrogant that in their minds nobody's pleasure but their own matters at all, but either way, some people don't need a 'reason' to do something. They just need to feel like it.

Read American Psycho if you're having trouble with moralizing your characters.

#52 Jul 24th 2007, 1:34am

Girlbrainiac

Yeah, my pirate character's actions all make sense from her perspective so long as you realize she has little regard for the lives, ambitions, or feelings of other people unless it somehow benefits (or impedes) HER. So long as you don't do anything to defy her, or to help her, she could care less about you. She's almost affectionate to the ones that are the most helpful to her, but it's the sort of affection one has for ones tools

Not every villain needs to believe they're doing good to be interesting. That's just one way of doing things. They should never do evil for evil's sake, though. That makes NO sense from any perspective I can think of... Or, at least, doesn't make for a believable character.

Girlbrainiac

#53 Jul 24th 2007, 6:05pm

iamthedave

Because its fun?

That's the thing. There is no 'evil for evils sake' unless there is a clearly defined force of 'evil' in the world. Otherwise there are only actions that are considered bad. If they just happen to enjoy performing deeds that someone would define as evil, then that's as sensible a reason as any. There are plenty of examples in the real world of that sort of thing.

There is always, of course, the old fallback: Insanity.

Shouldn't be used like that, but if you say a character is insane its hard to fight it. After all, they don't think like us... Or if the villain in question isn't Human. That's another way to make it fly.

#54 Jul 25th 2007, 9:10am

Insanity is a bit odd for the minion to think about people writing about, since very few rational people know how the insane mind works. And even at there, tehre are diffrent kinds of insanity, and diffrent ways people could be insane in the first place.

I always found insanity to be an interesting subject, espically since I've questioned my own sanity several times.

There are instances when people do bad things because they're bad, but those usually have even deeper running thigns such as a child who misbehaves for attention or misbehaves because he knows he shouldn't be doing it. (Don't tell me you never stole a cookie from the cookie pot because you wanted to see if you would get caught.)

#55 Jul 30th 2007, 12:06am

[QUOTE]Insanity is a bit odd for the minion to think about people writing about, since very few rational people know how the insane mind works. And even at there, tehre are diffrent kinds of insanity, and diffrent ways people could be insane in the first place[/QUOTE]

I have a great saying: 'Everyone's crazy. Start worrying when you think you're sane.' True, a rational person might find it difficult to imagine the insane, but very few people are rational to the point where they prevent themselves from imagining the insane or irrational. If you can imagine it, it is possible (within certain boundries. I don't expect anyone to ressurect the dead or try to do it just to prove me wrong). Since the mind is infinitely capable of stupidity, compassion, insanity, and a few others that I can't think of off the top of my head, all of them are often mistaken for another. I don't want you to think that rational people can't imagine insanity because them you might start believing that rational people exist. People can make rational decisions, but they themselves are not rational. Otherwise the world would be a much better place and be worse off at the same time. We would sacrifice imagination for order and compliance. For some reason I have sudden revolutionary impulses. Steal the cookies and damn the torpedos!

As to why we steal cookies, pick any reason you want. Any of them are right if you want them to be. I myself once stole cookies simply because I wanted a cookie and didn't feel like spending $2.99 on them. Got caught about three minutes later and was immediately fired. DON'T STEAL COOKIES! *sigh The saddest day of my life where I succumbed to human desire and had the stupidity of my actions thrust forcefully down my throat. Alas, I shall never again look at those frosted sugar cookies in the same way...damn...

#56 Jul 30th 2007, 8:53pm

There are limits to the common folk's irrationality though. Why else would we have institutions for the insane? How could we know what people there think, their brain most likely functions in a diffrent manner than our own.

Though, with that aside, the minion agrees in most other points, but is too lazy to paraphrase.

As a side note, the minion is shocked at the amazing truths that cookies can show.

#57 Aug 05th 2007, 8:57pm

Albert Einstein once said, "There are two things that are infinite: The universe, and human stupidity. And I'm not so sure about the universe." I recently read 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' where some of the people committed to the institution were not insane by some standards, but lacked the ability to go unobserved by other, 'normal,' people. What I'm trying to say is that people who might seem insane to you are perfectly normal in their own environments. There is no such thing as normal, because there is no standard for normality. If you try and get into their heads, like you do for every book you read when you understand what the protagonist is doing, you'll find that people act in anyway you can think of.

As to the truth shown by cookies, it was a bad day for Shadowhound.

#58 Aug 05th 2007, 9:38pm

Girlbrainiac

On a side note... Another truth that cookies show: little sisters are very gullible, and easy to manipulate. :P

There's also a saying that insane people don't know they're insane. They think they're going saner. So every action of an insane person has some sort of rationale, even if it is something absolutely absurd to sane people. Just saying someone is insane is a major cop out. In what way does their thinking make them insane? WHY do they do what they do? THAT'S what you want to understand.

Girlbrainiac

#59 Aug 06th 2007, 3:30pm

Ah, 'One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest' one of the only movies I liked just as much as the book. That's a good case in point for older standards of insanity and asylums actually... CRAZY stuff happened in those places which most likely never helped the conditions. (Though, a good friend of mine nbenifited from shock theropy in the middle of the school year, and said the modern version dosn't hurt at all.)

Actually, now that I think about it, the Darwin awards is another good example of seamingly 'normal' people doing beyond stupid things.

The mind is truely an odd, odd place.

Hum... looked back at your other post, and suddenly got the thought that perfectly rational people would be like robots. Does that mean being irrational is what makes us human? Well, not what, just a factor. What makes people human as a whole is quite debateable.

I've heard there's a lot of debate if an insane person ever wonders if they're insane, or if it's a sign of nor-common brain functions.

#60 Aug 06th 2007, 11:04pm . Edited Aug 06th 2007, 11:07pm

iamthedave

-------I've heard there's a lot of debate if an insane person ever wonders if they're insane, or if it's a sign of nor-common brain functions.-------

my brother's a social worker and has dealt with several terrifyingly insane people, and not one of them would describe themselves as insane. One of them was a paranoid schizophrenic, who my brother colourfully described as 'stone cold nuts', who had stabbed several people and murdered two, who genuinely thought he was fine and that everybody else in the world was out to get him.

In other cases he's reported either that they simply deny problems, or believe that everything they do is someone else's fault. So in short, no, generally speaking a crazy person has an internal explanation that makes sense to them or they have an in-built excuse for their actions that justifies everything.

It's only in books and movies where the madman knows he's crazy and has interesting insights on the Human condition because of it.

#61 Aug 07th 2007, 1:35am

No, was not meaning that insane people know that they're insane, was more so trying to put up the suggestion that questioning one's own sanity is a sign that it's there. The minion believes that everyone thinks their thought is close to correct on the way that the world is. But, there's no way to prove anything because you can only assume what is there based on your perspetive.

#62 Aug 09th 2007, 1:55pm . Edited Aug 09th 2007, 1:56pm

Quite frankly, I find fantasy tales without some element of violence to be somewhat boring. They remind me too much of Jaqueline Wilson *shudder*. Fantasy is by definition not that realistic. Our modern lives contain a certain paucity of combat. And, as a rule, male humans seem to enjoy that kind of thing. Where the world fails, us authors step in...

And besides, it requires a huge knowledge of pacifism, the diplomatic service, or whatever, to have a non violent adventure. Take Robert Harris' Imperium. He must have spent ages looking up all the Roman names and events for what is an excitingly written historical account. Doing that kind of thing without inspiration, in your own universe...

But for me, it boils down to this.

I am an adolescent male. I collect things like warhammer and RTSs. Ergo, my stories either contain an element of violence, or are comedies of some kind. The sexual ones, no doubt, will come soon...

#63 Nov 14th 2007, 11:58am

I think I have came across a happy middle line between the rampaging, all killing beserker and a hippy guy with finger wagging and long words.

A conscript.

Think about it! The guy has had some military training, possibly some propaganda. He knows that it is neccesary to kill the enemy, and presumably has a sense of self preservation. But he is not a grizzled soldier. He is a former civillian. He has civillian morals, civillian ethics. Putting the laws of civilization and gentility against winning the war and killing stuff, as well as the man's probable cowardice, may well create a good dilemma or two.

#64 Nov 14th 2007, 12:05pm

What about a noncombatant in the military? A person who is a part of the army, but doesn't fight in it. In my story The Phoenix Wars the narrator is a translator because the army he is a part of is in a foreign land and hardly anyone speaks the language.

#65 Nov 14th 2007, 12:20pm

well if their was no fighting what would be the climax? plus how would the chracter get to show off they're incredibly new found strong powers? their just has to be a fight seen or the book dosn't work. some one always has to be killed because thats life and it ads reality to a cery unreal storie. it all just has to be done

#66 Mar 03rd, 8:42pm

I'd read that but there is a massive lack of spelling and grammar.

#67 Mar 03rd, 8:59pm

do you not see what my pick is? lol

#68 Mar 03rd, 9:03pm

Who did or didn't see what?

*Gives up*

#69 Mar 03rd, 9:18pm

my AV. it's a pic of a poor school with the words "center for kids who can't read good" above it.

#70 Mar 03rd, 9:23pm

It's not nice to take a semi-humorous picture and shrink it down to an illegible size.

I really can't tell if you're trolling, attempting to add an argument, or being sarcastic.

#71 Mar 03rd, 9:24pm

Well, saying "pick" gave me no idea whatsoever what you spoke of.

But seriously. I haven't made mistakes you're making since, like, fourth grade...

#72 Mar 03rd, 9:38pm

Regardless, this is so completely off topic it's not funny. Stop making jabs at each other and act like adults. And if you're not, well remember, this is the internet: where no one knows how old you are. So at least stop acting like children.

As to what Willowbate said about there having to be a fight to show off how awesomely strong there character has become. Normally I'd make some witty comment, but I'm in the middle of writing a magic fight of epic proportions so can't say much. Oh, what the hell. That's all fine and dandy if you're doing it to show the progress your character has made, but no so much if it is to show off a character and make him look uber kool lol...*sigh. OMG, WTFWJD? What do you think? Turn the other cheek? I'm all for violence but not senseless violence where the only point is to showcase how much stronger one guy is over the other.

#73 Mar 03rd, 9:49pm

In my possibly-BS defense, I might have just wanted him to make his point legibly so I could respond to it.

Epic fight just to watch the smashing is like what DBZ does, and that is a road I doubt you want to follow.

If you want to show how truly powerful a character is... nonfatal disarmament takes more skill than killing.

#74 Mar 03rd, 9:53pm

No, one of them has to die. To the two character it is more a competition that can only be satisfied by killing the other. It also helps that they are on opposing sides in a war. One of the characters, Azamon the Vandal, is a braggart who staked his repuation on killing the other, Skollhati. And I don't exactly mean epic in the DBZ sense where the two are just pounding away at each other. I want it to play out more like a game of chess. Azamon and Skollhati aren't going to come in contact with each other, but use their magic to fight from a distance. I use epic because the two combatants want it to be a show of sorts. They could use smaller magics to kill each other, but are opting for more visual magic. It'd be like using a cannon stuffed with fireworks over using a much more economical pistol.

#75 Mar 03rd, 10:04pm

Plus how would the chracter get to show off they're incredibly new found strong powers?

How about playing baseball? Cooking dinner? Actually going out and showing off for the heck of it? How about with accidents? Maybe ripping off the door of your new car because of your super strength?

There are many activities that powers could help in. You don't need spandex or swords to make a differance (though they do help for the short term).

While I honestly think your explanation definately justifies the fight, I think, "because it's cool" is a perfectly acceptable answer. Not saying that's the reasoning behind your battle, I want to meet more people who can explain the reasoning behind the battle, but can also admit they're doing it because they like that kind of stuff. Everyone has their illogical weakspots. That's why we like/they write fantasy.

#76 Mar 03rd, 10:15pm . Edited Mar 03rd, 10:17pm

Shadowhound, I didn't mean for your particular thing; I just meant, in general for showoff-iness. You got some crazy guy with a knife charging you and then *bam,* you shoot the knife out of his hand (mangling the hand, but yeah)... as a gun example, that's a lot more impressive than *bam,* headshot.

#77 Mar 03rd, 10:49pm

shadow: i agree. sensless fighting for the sake of fighting is well sensless. if there's no reason then don't do it. :P

#78 Mar 05th, 6:43pm

lord of light

i think some people here are losing sight of what writing (in general, not just fantasy) is all about. you write to entertain. imo, writing to be different for the sake of being different or to prove a point is a pathetic reason to write, but so is making a carbon copy of something else.

that being said, i agree with most of you that fighting just to fight does not make a good story. ive read some stories where theres so many fight scenes that they simply come off as filler. if the characters have to fight, make it a good reason to. using war can be a cop out, but it is also a very good way of drawing lines between protagonist and antagonist. and remember that no one is purley good nor evil. in my experience, the best stories are ones where the main character faces an internal as well as an external conflict, and war is usually the best way to express that. ordinary men and women (civilian or soldier) is the best way to have a character relate to the reader. war isnt the only answer, but often times thats what the reader wants to read. my current series is set during a decade long war, but throughout the first book, the actual war and the opposing side isnt even present, and i dont plan on really showing the main villain until the end. face it, war is a part of our history and fantasy tends to delve into history.

#79 Mar 10th, 10:52am

And fighting lets you have an anti war fantasy (Which everyone likes), or a pro war fantasy (which everyone flames you for. Like expressing most conservative views in the literary world.)

But I digress. If anyone has seen Journey's End, they will know that you can have excellent characterisation and moving moments and fight scenes at the same time. In the above play, the fighting isn't even shown. But I'm sure that the same effect can be achieved with fights scenes included.

#80 Mar 10th, 11:45am

ok i'm bord with this subtopic we should talk about how to imporve our own stories :P

#81 Mar 10th, 9:17pm

Well pacing is an important part of it. The reader doesn't necessarily need a blow-by-blow play of how the battle is going, I prefer to gave the broad strokes rather than the fine detail. In a battle the reader is more concerned with the battle itself than the going ons of a single fighter. Would you rather know how one person is doing or how the battle is playing out? I'd say give enough information that the reader can figure out what is going on rather than telling them every detail. That's more my personal opinion, though.

#82 Mar 10th, 10:22pm

oh Lor! i suppose i'll need a war in mine to won't i? ah well it shall be a good one though because it won't be done with anoying swords it will be faught will water and fire and metal and plants. oh now i want to write so i can get to the fight scene!!

#83 Mar 12th, 5:25pm

I had a mage battle in ch. 27 of The Phoenix Wars. It was between an earth mage and a fire mage and took place on a stretch of land about a mile wide. Battles like that are a lot of fun to write but you have to be careful on the pacing. It's easy to go off on a tangent and explain HOW the magic is being done rather than focusing on what is happening. Don't break into the mechanics of how the magic is working and twisting the world, just show it being done and let the reader imagine the rest. One of my dueling mages, Skollhati, conjured up a fire bird big enough to blot out the sun. A spell like that would take a lot of preparation. Rather than tell the read how many days and weeks it took to prepare, I just showed the fire bird coming out and attacking his opponent's golems.

#84 Mar 12th, 6:25pm

i don't have a battle yet. you really don't even know my plot yet i don't think. i'm seriously wondering about posting it on here though cause i don't want my profile to be hacked.

#85 Mar 13th, 5:28pm

How often are profiles hacked? I don't know you plot, I'm just making general observations and recommendations.

#86 Mar 13th, 8:20pm

well idk cause then it'll look like i've hacked my self cause i've got it posted on fanfic

#87 Mar 14th, 3:39pm

Well, willowbate, lets see what you do have in your mind right now. Do you have, for example, a world? If so, that's a good start. You can make a forum for all of us to give "helpful advice" about plot and such.

#88 Mar 15th, 4:52am

oh bother... i don't want to have to deal with running a bord it's to much of a hastle and plus i don't have the slightest i dea of how to do it.

ok i know this is way super of topic but could you guy's help me out by answering this Q for me? it's for school.

how many times a week do you drink coffee?

2-4

5-8

9-12

13 or more

#89 Mar 16th, 6:45pm

None.

#90 Mar 29th, 3:00am