I hate it when............... - Too Much Magic Forum

Well actually, it depends. If any of you have read R.A. Salvatore's Cleric Quintet, the main character, a scholar-priest (very odd... he's a cleric who's actually kinda an agnostic during the first few books) starts off in the series of five books as a really weak character who depends on his (extremely) powerful friends to help him get through serious problems. Slowly, he grows stronger, and around the middle of the third book, he has a religious revelation and starts to become extremely powerful.

But I guess that's different, I suppose.

#3 Oct 18th 2006, 3:31pm

Really? I get it when you talk about certain characters(usually the main)suddenly going from weak ,dumb or whatever the case may be to ubberly better without explanation. That's up to the author who needs to fill in the blanks badly but isn't the point of stories having magic to be somewhat unrealistic. I should know I write stories to do with magic almost always!

No hard feelings though I get your point.

#4 Oct 18th 2006, 4:00pm

Love-between-lies

I flipping hate it when Charaters are prefectly good in the begining but aren't the best looking then BAM all of a sudden they have powers and everybody loves them because the are amazing looking. Like what the eff?

#5 Oct 18th 2006, 7:49pm

Instead of having a weak character become stronger, why not just have the character be strong at the beginning? Not monstrously so, but strong enough that when he does get stronger it isn't so obvious and he is straining to maintain control so everything doesn't blow up in his face. At the same time, if you make secondary characters who have known the main character for a long time, such a strength is expected and does not see so out of place. Basically, you want to try to keep any monstrous growth of power that differentiates between chapters.

#6 Oct 18th 2006, 8:08pm

Complications

yeah and also when they can do all these magic stuff but it doesn't take the micky out of them or anything. There's no real exchange, it's like oil floating on water and seems unrealist... And howabout when the character runs full speed down a corridor with a broken leg! *slaps forhead*.

#7 Oct 19th 2006, 4:29am

Noctame

Its hard to judge how dynamic changes in a character should progress, Magic justs complicates things. So when I feel I've made things supre fantastica I try to go back and see where I decided to make everyone superfantastical. It's easier hen your sensitive to your work, and have a great editor.

#8 Oct 19th 2006, 6:17am

Chiclets

Yes...I believe that I've never been quite so unfortunate as to read one such story. But then again, I don't really get through the first few paragraphs of stories like that. You can tell.

#9 Oct 19th 2006, 9:47pm

diamond-dust08

i feel so bad for the stories who have those kinds of stories, but i feel much worse for the authors you're referring to (even if you guys were just mentioning it generally).

anyways.

magic is there to be unrealistic, so deal with it. i just find it to be a "bleh" moment when a main character can use magic without a drawback, and owns everybody else with such magic. if you're in doubt, always use the formula that villain protagonist, and the only advantage of a protagonist is anything other than raw strength or power. maybe numbers, wits, willpower, whatever.

you could learn a lot from shounen manga.

just my two cents.

#10 Oct 21st 2006, 2:33am

What you say is true. Magic is meant to be unrealistic. A story about a hero's quest cannot be good unless the hero faces some kind of challenge. If a hero works hard and overcomes challenges to gain his magical power, then that's a good and believable story. But if a hero suddenly goes from weak to strong (Eragon, anyone?) then that's just a cheap deus ex machina.

There's a danger in making one character too powerful. Here's an example. If any of you watch the anime Inuyasha, then you'll know about Miroku and his Wind Tunnel. For those of you who don't, the Wind Tunnel is basically a black hole in Miroku's palm that can suck up entire armies of demons. It is hard to create a challenge for such a powerful character. When Miroku is faced with an enemy, the writers have two options.

1. Miroku uses the Wind Tunnel, leaving fans dissatisfied at the overly simple solution to the problem.

2. Miroku doesn't use the Wind Tunnel, allowing for more action. However, this makes the scene less believable. Fans are left wondering "why didn't Miroku just suck up all those demons and avoid all that trouble?"

Characters need weaknesses because the story needs challenges. Superman had Kryptonite and Miroku has saimyoshou insects. However, I think it's better if the characters' limits don't come from an outside source. In the fantasy stories I write (none of them have been posted yet), I don't use the generic idea of magic because it gives one character several powers. Rather, I give each character only one supernatural power. One can control fire, another can talk to the dead, etc.

#11 Oct 21st 2006, 12:09pm

Magic, though, should have its drawbacks. Like you mentioned, Acala, if a character like Miroku and his almighty Wind Tunnel is present in a novel, it's really a story-dampener. What would be an example to make Miroku's Wind Tunnel more believable (because, believe or not, that's what you're aiming for in fantasy - to make it as believable as [in]humanly possible to the reader!) would be, perhaps, to make it so he absorbs the qualities of the thing he sucked in. For example, if he sucked in an apple.... maybe he'd turn red.

Heh. And maybe crisp. Or with holes... you get the point.

Anyways. And what would be even BETTER would be to make Miroku's Wind Tunnel be unpredictable (so it could swallow Miroku any second, without warning, every time he uses it) , although that would get sort of old after a bit.

Characters DO need weaknesses, the story DOES need challenges.

What you're aiming for in a fantasy story (or poem, or any piece of writing with any theme) is to make it as believable as possible. After all, if you have someone firing a ball of fire at you from nowhere, that makes the concept of magic much more believable, no?

#12 Oct 21st 2006, 4:55pm

diamond-dust08

lol. everybody i go to these days bash Inu-Yasha, but i'm inclined to agree.

i have to agree there Acala: the concept of giving only one magical ability to a character is nice, so even if he has no apparent weakness his inherent weakness is the user of another ability.

and again to Ness3665. characters need weaknesses, a story needs challenges, and magic or anything of the sort requires a sort of an outlay or cost to use it.

#13 Oct 21st 2006, 6:34pm

Yeah I hate it when inadept writers leave a bunch of holes in their stories and fill them with 'But it's magic!' Even magic should have some explanation, because every story has it's own idea of what magic bis, and that's how it should be.

#14 Oct 22nd 2006, 5:00am

Everyone hates a character with no apparent weakness. Naturally. But what if that character, instead of having tons of minor weaknesses, what about one big one?

Take Superman and Batman. Batman has plenty of vulnerabilities, but none of them are ever enough to kill him. Superman, on the other hand, is helpless when faced with kryptonite.

Another thing few take into account: time periods. If anyone noticed (Acala *cough*), it took months for Eragon to begin to beat Brom, and that's with the Rider abilities. Not to mention he gets totally dominated by Durza like anyone else.

...

Sorry, we all have obsessions.

But seriously, a LOT of people just miss the author saying "Two months later, Sawte was one of the best mages..." They simply miss where the author says later.

#15 Oct 22nd 2006, 4:54pm

Kazu.Shinn.Jz.

Heatless is right, sometimes we just miss the little deatails. likeafter a few months or so. But still authors should be descriptive on how they actually became the powerful. Not just beong contended with afert a few months. why not like a whole shapter of training and just end it with he continued with this training for monsths.

But c'mon we all hate those who just becmoe powerful in a single snap. All heroes needs a weakness, they would be gods if they don't have any.

#16 Oct 22nd 2006, 9:41pm

I don't really agree with the idea of characters having one big weakness as opposed to several small weaknesses. If a character has only one big weakness (like Kryptonite) then he swings between two extremes: invulnerability and helplessness.

For example, let's take the most recent Batman and Superman movies. Now, IMHO, Batman Begins was by far a superior film. There were many reasons for this, but one of them was the fact that Batman has many little vulnerabilities. This way, whenever Batman is faced with a challenge, we get to see him fight through it and overcome it. His vulnerabilities make him believable. He has both strengths and weaknesses. They make him human.

Now take Superman. He spent most of his movie flying around finding overly easy solutions to problems. He is so strong that he is unbelievable. But when he's faced with Kryptonite, he turns into a helpless weakling, which is equally unbelievable.

PS- Sorry to press an unimportant point, Heatless Flame, but even if Eragon had trained for months, I doubt he could be equal to Brom, who had years of sword experience under his belt. And Durza did dominate Eragon, but only to leave him with a scar that would give Eragon a reason to angst for a while before having it magically zapped away.

#17 Oct 23rd 2006, 8:11pm

Manda Pantxike Sterling

I just happened to notice that you mentioned R.A. Salvatore's book series. I haven't read "the Cleric Quintet" yet, but I've read all of "The Legend of Drizzt". I just am amazed at how attached I became to the story and Salvatore's characters. I was simply wondering if you have read them. No one that I know has.

#18 Oct 24th 2006, 10:52am

I've read most of Salvatore's Forgotten Realms books and enjoyed them immensely. The thing about the Cleric books is that the main character, Cadderly the priest, goes from being a relatively weak, inexperienced priest to being one of his god's most powerful clerics.

Now, on the surface, this sounds pretty bad. It seems like another case of a kid going from a weakling to an ubermensch. But as Ness said earlier, Salvatore managed to pull it off. Here's a couple reasons why.

1. We do actually see Cadderly struggle. We see him struggle with both his clerical powers and his faith. In fact, when he first starts getting his religious "revelation" in the third book, he is terribly frightened and wonders if he is going insane.

2. Cadderly is a priest, not a magician, and his powers depend on his god Deneir. Now, I don't consider Deneir to be a deus ex machina. For example, in Eragon, a dragon spirit pops out of nowhere, heals Eragon, and disappears once it's served its purpose in the plot. Dragon spirits were never mentioned before that point. However, Deneir was an element of the story that was well-integrated into the story line before the third book. He was not just a tacked-on plot device.

#19 Oct 24th 2006, 12:03pm

Du Edoc'sil

im gonna have to say that the one part that i hate most is definitely when a character goes through some ritual and is all of a sudden super powerful and can do all the things he/she was struggling with before, *cough cough eragon/eldest* now dont get me wrong, i liked those books, but sometimes its the fact that like the character cant do something at first that makes it more believeable. for instance, if instead of eragon going to the blood-oath ceremony and being touched by the spirit dragon and waking up with the powers and strengths of an elf, what if he had trained hard and done all that was in his grasp unleash the power that could have been inside of him to start with. i dont know just my oppinion on that subject, but yeah, its one thing that im really trying not to do in my book, sorcere. one of the things im doing is that everyone has an elemental strength and so therefore they all have an elemental weakness. tell me what you think of the idea.

#20 Oct 24th 2006, 2:01pm

It's a pretty good idea, but beware; many authors try and element book and the excellent book slowly and grossly becomes a "cliche", something everyone wants to avoid. But, I also plan to do an element story. So I suppose I really shouldn't act like I may or may not accidentally do the same thing.

On another note, here's something I want to ask: Does anyone think that powerhopping is bad? In my current book, my character is going from power to power like a madman. Each one has a fairly believeable explanation, but the biggest change is coming up and I need help.

Another thing is a favor. Like I said before, I am on the last chapter of one of my stories. I worked my way up to the climax, but everything before that (in the last chapter seems pretty dry. If anyone wants to help, send me a personal message or email me at silver11wolf@yahoo.com. Thanks in advance!

~Heatless Flame

#21 Oct 24th 2006, 4:20pm

Chiclets

I like Eragon, so - I've never considered the abruptness of his blooming abilities, and I'm too lazy to think about it now, but yes - one has to remember that no matter the magical abilities, the characters are still people (or personified, or humanoid, or whatever) and that they still have weaknesses. To not do so would be, essentially, placing them in a God role, and what's the fun in that?

#22 Oct 24th 2006, 6:30pm

I know what you mean when you say only one magical ability. Perhaps the best type of magic that can be associated with this idea is elemental magic. A person specializing in fire magic tends to fall short against a water mage. Hell, even pokemon got that idea through.

#23 Oct 24th 2006, 7:11pm

To Heatless:

That is a serious problem.

Powerhopping is horrible. The reason being is, it's the same thing as a hair-breadth escape - too much will bore your reader. Sure, they all have good explanations - but so many, in so little time? Not very believable, and I will say this FOREVER: Your goal in writing is to make your writing so believable, the reader is sucked into your realm!

Remember that, and place yourself in your realm. Ask yourself, then - Is it real?

You'll find the answer, and when you do, I strongly urge you to make some changes. Although I haven't read your story. xD

#24 Oct 25th 2006, 2:49pm

Could you tell me exactly what "powerhopping" is? When he "goes from power to power", does that mean he loses an old power when he gains a new one? Or does he just keep building up a bigger arsenal of abilities?

#25 Oct 25th 2006, 4:38pm

The latter.

#26 Oct 26th 2006, 3:58pm

TO Kazu.Shinn.Jz.& Heatless

I don't agree that authors can go all out in how they become powerful. I should know I'm still trying to figure out what I am going to do when the magical progression starts. An author would have to sit down and do research or make rules and everything for a long time.Months or possibly a year or two. Not everyone can take their time to write out everyday like I'm trying to.People today don't have that kind of time or they want to keep there readers so they hurry to make a new chapter.

I also don't like the people who become powerful in a short time but we have to be realistic here.

#27 Oct 26th 2006, 9:21pm

Shoot. Sorry if power hopping is a term, but my hero loses powers then gains new ones. Is that still pretty bad if I have a fair explanation for each?

#28 Oct 27th 2006, 1:54pm . Edited Oct 27th 2006, 1:54pm

Yeah, back to Amanda Black for a second. The rules that you impose upon your world aren't for you. They're for the readers. If you tell the reader than you can't bring back the dead, and you say that again and again, then it becomes amazing when your character does that at the expense of something personal, i.g. his life. It also allows the reader to see that there are basic rules that have to be followed. Certain things that can and cannot happen. And it isn't about not researching and making rules, it is about deciding one thing and sticking with it. If you say that light consumes darkness, then you can't have darkness consuming light. If x=y and only y, then y=x and only x, but w does not equal x or y. I understand that people don't have a lot of time to think about what they want their rules to be, but those are things that they have to sit down and think about to a degree. This is all about keeping a fantasy story full of dragons and sorcerors casting magic spells realistic. It's what makes a story good.

#29 Oct 27th 2006, 3:50pm

Spirithunter

About the whole powerful characters thing, I wrote a short story a little while ago, where there's a prophecy that says that "the tiger" will rise and defeat the classic(ish) evil person Then, when the sun is eclipsed by the red moon Omoro and the moon Silvyr is eclipsed by the planet Norcandra, and both sun and moon are in totality at the same time, then the main character, a tiger anthro named Etimis, will suddenly find an inner power and finally kill the evil person (they're in a fight at the time). I put a nice drawback to the whole 'sudden god-like powers' thingy, though, and made the character die soon after the battle, since he did use a LOT of energy. The story still needs a lot of editing, but still, it's not like Etimis suddenly becomes powerful and stays that way for the rest of the story.

#30 Oct 27th 2006, 4:10pm

I know this is kinda random, but It seriously irritates me when the main character is like this:

Crazy-hott chick who's like ultra-powerful or at least has no weaknesses, and is all 'can't touch me cause I'm so dangerous' and can also somehow manage to single-handedly take out five buff thugs at the same time.

Grrrr. Don't that, please, or all female readers will hate you, although you might get some guys to drool all over your writing.

#31 Oct 28th 2006, 7:27am

Rosemarine:

I know this is kinda random, but It seriously irritates me when the main character is like this:

Grrrr. Don't that, please, or all female readers will hate you, although you might get some guys to drool all over your writing.

I do write stories where the hot chick is powerful but not to the point were she can't be hurt. And it does get irritating I agree. But the part about female readers hating the writer I don't. It kind of reminds me of the last vampire series which I loved. The lead character was an almost heartless, powerful, hot to the max, vampire and I loved it!

#32 Oct 30th 2006, 6:58am

One of the first posts I saw on the new fictionpress had to due with how the fifteen-year ole who got sent to the magic world is handed a sword as big as him and slays the army of giants. I want to say how dumb that is, even if the guy is "The *coughclichedcough* Chosen One". I mean, come on. If I was zapped to any of my stories right now, even with a sword I would die very soon. If your main character was born on earth, then he's not a GIANT KILLING MACHINE!

#33 Nov 01st 2006, 2:46pm

I try to separate characters into three different types when it comes to that issue. Some have been fighters most of their life, some have been trained but have no practical experience in combat, and some should never be given anything sharper than a spork.

When I write for any of these three types, I have a simple rule of thumb: The character's type will NEVER change unless the story covers at least two years of time. My type B's will occasionally learn to deal with the harsher realities of combat or pick up a trick or two from the type A's, but that's about it. Occasionally a type C will, in the course of the story, become very skilled at... not to dieing in five seconds. Or running away.

One thing I'd like to ask of new and old fictionpress nerds alike: Please don't pull an Eragon and turn a C into an A in five weeks.

#34 Nov 03rd 2006, 7:53am . Edited Nov 03rd 2006, 7:54am

What you say makes sense, and I was hoping you could help me.

I'm writing a story at the moment, and my main xter's a type B. He's from a noble family which was killed off during a troll raid. His family had a reputation of producing the best swordsmen in the king's army. The thing is his training was cut short when he was 17 and two years later he needs to defeat a dark mage. How powerful can he get?

P.S: He has the following companions:

A tag-along innkeeper's daughter (C type)

Captain of the King's Northern guard (A type)

Captain of the King's Southern guard (A type)

that's all I have for now, thanks in advance!

#35 Nov 04th 2006, 9:43am

How powerful the character gets depends largely on how long the story goes for. Depending on your plot, he doesn't ever have to get more powerful than he starts. Your type B should be able to defeat your average idiot thug and look good doing it, but as the foes get more skilled the type B must call upon more and more of their training until it's a struggle for survival. In that sense, the type B doesn't have to get more powerful. They just have to stretch the limits of their skills to the breaking point by the end of the story.

Other than that, the type As can be a contributing factor in the type B's growth as well, because they've viewed war from a survivalist perspective. The biggest help they can offer is to teach the type B to hold nothing back, honing his/her skill yet disregarding the "rules" one is subject to in training. Think Pirates of the Caribbean: Will Turner is arguably more skilled then Jack Sparrow ("Captain!"), yet will still loose because he isn't willing to think outside the box in combat.

#36 Nov 05th 2006, 6:18pm . Edited Nov 06th 2006, 10:48am

Q, you sound brilliant on forums and I agree with almost everything you have to say, but can't we see more of your actual writing? The only story you have up I found a little dissapointing considering your apparent knowlege of the art of writing.

Anyways, in response to whoeverthatwasiforgetwho, I guess different women have different opinions on chixx with swords. I opologize for generalizing. But I just want a character I can feel close to, you know? A character that seems real and tangible, not one that tries to make me want to be something i'm not. A good character (in my opinion only) is someone you can cry with, rejoice with, feel every action and motion with as though you were right by their side. It's kind of hard to keep up with or be attached to an invincible or near invincible chracter (man or woman) who all sexy and powerful.

#37 Nov 19th 2006, 12:54pm

I remove stories a lot, because I don't like my own work. The one I have posted I don't like either, because right now it seems flawed because the later bits aren't added to explain the unknowns.

#38 Nov 19th 2006, 6:09pm

Edron the Blue

I know this is kinda random, but It seriously irritates me when the main character is like this:

Grrrr. Don't that, please, or all female readers will hate you, although you might get some guys to drool all over your writing

Interesting statement though your phrasing has valley-girl written all over it. But I digress. I have a girl-fighter character in my story whose weapons include bows, boomerangs and her fists and feet, the latter being preferred for anything not flying or more than thirty feet away. She is seperated from the main character early on, and later, once they're reunited, she is quickly captured by a villain and is to be publicly slain as a means of discouraging the resisting villagers from trying anything funny. As you can well imagine, a rescue party is formed and the gates of the fort are obliderated by said party, which includes her brother, her best friend (aka Main Character) and a group of compatriots the best friend has picked up along the way (they've been apart for quite some time, so the party is quite sizable, boasting a wide array of fighting styles and elemental magic). With a little help from a kind-hearted prison guard, she manages to escape, recover her weaponry and sneak all the way down to the main gate, (she doesn't know the size or strength of her rescue party, plus she's not the type to take kindly to the damsel-in-distress role) only to be stopped by the hulking, battle-ax wielding contructs guarding the exit. While she's gaping at them with an "oh yeah, I'm screwed." expression, a smaller construct sneaks up behind her and relieves her of her bow and boomerangs. Her response? Pull and arrow from her quiver and shove it into his throat (yes, this construct has a throat. It's complicated.). He's done. As she reaches for her bow, an axe comes down and cleaves it to splinters. Eventually, she realizes her only option is to fight like hell or die there, and the latter seems like a bad option so she fights. With no weapons, just her hands and feets. These guys are mostly metal, but they're armor has significant gaps where a well-placed sharp object could do them in. She does this, getting a few cuts and bruises, but nothing serious. Then she runs out of arrows. What does she do? Tighten up the gloves and get t' beatin'. By the time the party has crashed the gate, (both literally and figuratively)she's laying in a mass of pummeled constructs (They have a name, but I'm not revealing anything on the forums)with her knuckles bleeding.

Bottom line:

Not invincible, just tough, independent and determined as all hell.

#39 Nov 20th 2006, 7:32pm

I think that's the point we were trying to make. Stuff like that just isn't realistic, or when it comes down to it very entertaining either.

#40 Nov 21st 2006, 7:52am

As Q was saying in a different forum (I do love you, by the way) this sort of thing looks brilliant in anime and action films, and sometimes even manga. But we are not creating anime, action films, or manga, are we? We are writing storybooks, which is a DIFFERENT medium and should be treated as such.

And just to make sure, latter means 'what i just said' and former means 'the thing before that'

#41 Nov 21st 2006, 8:58am

Indeed, in fiction, one must be as realistic as you can. The reader has to actually take these LETTERS, these odd symbols on paper or maybe the computer, and they have to VISUALIZE your character. What's more, they have to take an extraordinary leap of faith and BELIEVE in your character, that he or she is real... and then, you have to make them love or even hate your character, and this takes one heck of a lot of realism.

Don't get confused, though. Fiction is also all about exaggeration, because like I said, the only thing the reader has to imagine all of this are some letters on paper or a screen. Pretty difficult, especially if it's some bad fiction. Because of this, exaggeration should be used. Not too much, but not too little either - you don't want it to sound boring or even cliched. And cliches are the best way to bore your reader to death, unless you pull it off well, with a new spin to it, have some extraordinarily believable cause for it, or if you're doing it for humor.

Ah. But that story you were talking about, Edron. That can actually be pulled off, believe it or not. If you built up your character well enough, and if it's believable, and if your reader really, truly in her heart believes in your character, then it might be pulled off very well.

If not... then that's a big ol' cliche and you'd better get rid of it or edit it as soon as possible.

What I hate is feminism in fiction taken to extremes. Super-powerful women who just start kicking guys' butts all over the place? Yeah right! But then there's also a lot of the opposite, where guys have almost demigod-like powers. The latter is often overlooked unless it's really extreme, so you can see the difference there between powerful guy characters and powerful girl characters. Yet more sexism in the world...

Oh yeah, and I believe former means "first," not "the thing I said before the latter." Just some thoughts.

#42 Nov 25th 2006, 7:58am

iamthedave

Writing is a didactic process. Everyone has their own opinions. So here's mine.

I don't believe that it's so simple as saying 'characters with no weaknesses suck'. ANY character can be used in a good story, and can be made to work. It depends on things surrounding it. Generally what makes a story fly is not the powers, it's the world, because it's the world that gives context to the power and MAKES it believable.

If a character quite literally has the power to end the world, but there is something in place that prevents that power from surfacing except in drips and drabs, then you've either got a lame and predictable plot device or a fascinating psychological angle to play off.

I try to write moderately realistic fiction, usually ramping up the dial on fight scenes and the like. Magic in my setting is both infinitely malleable and incredibly limited, as no two people can do the same things and it's fairly rare. Partially I do this because I've realised that most readers don't give a toss about what the characters can do, it's who they are. The weaknesses that keep people reading are the social ones.

You know. The paranoias. The phobias. The moments when the character is nasty because they're close to snapping from tension. The fetishes. That's what people care about, and this is true in both inhuman and human races. In my experience people start turning off when you fall back on magic.

The point is that when you're using magic, it MUST have a severe psychological presence on the character. Someone who can shapeshift into anything without effort is as likely to sit on a chair as to turn themselves into a beanbag, and the latter will probably be more comfortable. Someone who can devour people whole is likely to have some very odd feelings concerning 'normal' food. Someone who can be in multiple places at once (and perceive through multiple bodies) is going to feel very odd when there's only one or two of themselves around.

Generally speaking I think it's better to take a small number of abilities and explore them deeply than to take a lot of abilities and hide the fact that your character isn't really changed by any of them save that they have 'some power'. I think if you do it that way it has more impact on the reader.

#43 Nov 26th 2006, 4:23am

I haven't read Eragon, and I'm not sure I intend to... I agree with Qlmmb2086 though, it's extremely annoying to have characters suddenly go all powerful and beat the villain with minimal effort.

But then it would probably come across as stupid if the main character defeats his/her archnemesis by pure luck; the character wouldn't get any stronger (except maybe psychologically). In view of this I propose some circumstances in which a temporary leap in power is acceptable, by me anyway

1) The cliche "Self-destruct monologue" in which the villain taunts a defeated hero/heroine. The protagonist doesnt respond until the villain touches a raw nerve, leading to an exponential rise in power (Spiderman and green goblin anyone)

2) The cliche "You can do it" in which the main character hears a love interest (whom may be dead) speaking words of encouragment as he/she lays dying on the ground. Said character then goes on to defeat villain with a series of logic-defying moves that would have Einstein and Newton turning over in their graves.

Einstein: "Where did all that ENERGY come from? HE BROKE MY LAW!"

Newton: "Good Lord...is she FLYING?!"

3) The cliche "The one" which is similar to the above case, except for the love interest. The main character suddenly realises that the kooky old man was right all along; he/she IS the chosen one. How they only realised that after getting their backsides whipped still baffles me...

4) The original "Act of desperation". It's not so much about what the character can do, but their frame of mind. Picture a character (any character) on the brink of death, any normal fictional character would probably accept death at the hands of the villain, but the main character, having had all his/her best moves thwarted, will try something totally new and unheard of (which was probably hinted at earlier in the storyline). The sheer boldness of the move, not the power, will catch the villain by surprise, thus leading to his/her/its demise. (A great example of this is Cloud's omnislash version 5 in Advent children...yes Isaac, Cloud IS allowed to fly, he's been doing it since the beginning of the movie!)

You've probably realised I like the 4th idea best.

#44 Nov 26th 2006, 3:54pm

...oh yeah, there is actually a 5th case...

5) The VERY cliche "Breaking your limits" in which the main character finally manages to pull off an attack he had failed to master earlier, this is usually due to said character discovering some philosophical truth (crap) his master had tried to ground into him from day one. He probably would have mastered the move earlier if he hadn't been drooling over the girl next door (Yes, this one applies mainly to us guys). Just goes to show girls are more focused, if not generally smarter ;)

#45 Nov 26th 2006, 4:19pm . Edited Nov 27th 2006, 12:53am

Dumbledore, one thing I have to say as a blindly loyal FF7 fan/fanatic. Cloud doesn't fly so much as jump in slow motion. Sephiroth can fly, but Cloud can't...yet.

As to your point five. Girls are not necessarily more focused or smarter, just mature at an earlier age. A prime example, Uzumaki Naruto from Naruto. He has difficulty doing a specific move, but does manage to do it during a crisis. He had no distractions or love interests while he was working on said technique, and spent over a month on it. Would a girl have done it quicker? Younger protagonists are more likely to be driven by hormones, but the older they get the more control they (usually) have over their impulses and bodies. The same goes with the girl next door. Stop stalking her!

#46 Nov 27th 2006, 11:46am

...cloud is getting there isn't he? Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. I've never watched Naruto (gasp) but I do know enough about it to understand what you're saying. I think I'm right in saying the technique he was struggling to master was a cloning technique or something? I know that he had problems mastering a cloning technique and later became the best at it cos it always came out in his exams or something...if that's what you're talking about then it is pretty original.

Also the cases I gave above can actually be mixed and matched as the author sees fit, so we could have a cae in which the protagonist gets his ** whooped, believes he's the chosen one, gets his ** whooped again before finally going berserk jus cos the bad guy calls him a wuss.

#47 Nov 27th 2006, 2:40pm

Yes gasp you have never watched Naruto! I watch it every week. Kind of like a ritual.

I hate when the character gets his or her ** kicked and is not even close to winning but once insulted gets really good real fast. I don't like it. You could atleast bring there levels closer before they win. I mean come on.

#48 Nov 27th 2006, 4:45pm

Is there anything you people DON'T hate? I mean, what is there left to use that hasn't been thorougly stamped 'DEFECTIVE'? I'm just beginning to feel a little lost...

Hey, did any of you guys see the X-Play Celebration of all things FF edition? It was pretty funny when they were trying to guess the genders of all the characters in the latest one, whichever numeral it is i don't know. I find it amusing how all FF males are so feminine (*wussy*)

#49 Nov 27th 2006, 4:52pm