Debate is always enriching and I regret not being able to be more active in this one. I'm graduating from highschool, TOMORROW, and I haven't had time to check up on the progress of this thing.

BEG, there's quite a few things I'd like to point out to you:

1. You said something along the lines of us not having any lives because we are arguing so vehemently online when in fact, you seem to be the most frequent and most passionate voice to be heard in this fray.

2. I've spent the past 3 years learning philosophy, literature, and the history of our culture and civilization informally while I wait for college and a chance to really get on with educating myself. So excuse me for being so absolutely affronted when you said "who cares about knowledge?" because I have been fighting tooth and nail to LEARN. I care very much and I can't see how you can't.

3. You also seem to have some odd presumption of what is taught in a formal class. There's no rigid way of writing shoved down our throats. We're presented with the facts, the theories, and we are allowed to make what we will of that.

To sum it up, I think you have an incredibly sciolistic view on this entire topic, but that's okay. To each his own. I appreciate your passion and respect your opinions (although I might not agree with all of them)

To Midnight In Eden:

I agree with the following:

1. I believe that novice writers will write cliches - it's a starting point - but at the same time they should move on from them, expand their vocabulary, their reading and eventually their own style.

This shows that you understand this but are still complaining though. There is no use in that.

2. I don't understand why people write only for themselves but then hand it to an audience. Again I do not write for an audience but I am still aware of one. There is a distinct difference there and if you don't understand it, I don't know how else to phrase it.

I agree whole heartedly with that. Funny, but it seems we were arguing the same point in this regard.

3. My definition of cliche is twofold. Firstly, "clichés are words or expressions that have lost their freshness and originality through continual use." So in that sense it refers first to overdone phrases i.e. moon, broken hearts, pretty as a picture, clear as glass, etc. Secondly, there are cliched topics i.e. love, heartbreak, etc. I believe that the former should be abandoned as soon as possibly (alternatively they can be parodied or exploited to make them new) but I believe that the latter are able to be explored but fresh language is needed to help make the cliched topic interesting again.

I can add nothing to this.

So that's basically what I've been trying to say (especially with #2 there) and you've finally got around to saying it perfectly.

I think we might have the same basic theories but we just apply them in different manners. What you do works for you and I what I do works for me. I'm 17 so I'm not striving to have anything published yet, but when I finally do, my methods will adapt to suit my needs. It's just that right now, I have no use for the advice you have so graciously (and somewhat offensively) given but I will keep it on hold until it does apply to the kind of work I am striving to create.

Basically, we are all just generally yelling at doorknobs, for all the regard we are giving to each other's opinions. We're simply dismissing each other's views (although I am NOT speaking on my own behalf,) and a debate should be approached with fully opened minds.

I feel that I need to, because you are talking about/to me.

Why do you think I am? You say it like I am not smart enough to understand what you are saying. I perfectly understand WHAT you are saying.

You said that about 5 times, and I know what you are saying!

Your tone says it.

Firstly, I'd like to wish you congrats. And I know debate is enriching.

1. I know I said it, and I meant it sarcastically. I'm sorry if ya'll took it another way. I know that I seem like that and it is mainly because FP emails me on EVERY update on this and there seems to be a lot, and it seems to be mainly about what I have said, so I make myself have time to respond, because I feel if I don't speak up, then I won't be heard.

2. I know this isn't an excuse, but I am going through an extremely hard time right now, with everything piling up and making this huge mountain upon my shoulders. So, yes, I feel that knowledge about this is low on my list, but I listen and comment because it lets me escape for a little bit. I'm sorry that you feel affronted when I said that, I was just frustrated and didn't really want to hear about it. I wish that I could be educated better, like you. I really do care, truthfully...I am a nerd, and it pains me that I am doing this.

3. I have never really taken a class on "formal", so excuse me for not being as educated as everyone else in this discussion. I feel out of the loop every day already.

4. Well, I don't think it's okay with me. (And, yes, I know what that word means.) I feel demeaned in some way. But, thank you for saying I have passion. Whatever that may be. I'm losing it on life, though.

I didn't read mie's part.

But, how old do you think I am?

I feel that I need to, because you are talking about/to me.

Why do you think I am? You say it like I am not smart enough to understand what you are saying. I perfectly understand WHAT you are saying.

You said that about 5 times, and I know what you are saying!

Your tone says it.

I'm going to assume this is in reference to me. You gave off the impression that you weren't sure what I was saying because you appeared to be misinterpreting my posts and asking numerous questions. I thus explained myself as simply as possible.

You did not appear to know what I was saying so I clarified it for you. I'm not trying to be patronising, I'm just trying to explain my points because you were asking a number of questions and it looked like you were asking for clarification.

Again, I ask that you not get personally involved. It doesn't matter how old you are or how smart you are. This isn't about you as a person, it's about the writing.

It is to reference to you. I am sure what you are saying. I am asking questions to make sure that what I was understanding was right. I feel lower when you make it 'simpler'.

It's the way I am. I make it a part of me. I am an emotional person. If you can't take it, then don't.

But, it doesn't seem like it's about the writing anymore.

I'm sorry, but I don't know what you mean by congrats. If this was meant sarcastically, you should make it clearer, since we are talking over keyboards.

1.Okay, that is perfectly understandable. Again, I wasn't able to tell that that was meant sarcastically, mainly because computer screens don't generally convey emotion.

2. I meant knowledge in general. But either way, I am so sorry for whatever you may be going through at the moment. I don't know you, and I am not aware of your situation, but you seem to be intelligent and strong, so whatever it is, you will make it through, and quite unscathed as well.

3. You seem to think we're smarter than you are, and although I can't speak for MIE (what with that triple major of hers,) I can honesty say that I am probably not smarter than you are. It might seem that way, but it's just because I can freakishly absorb information, and am somewhat of a narcissist, though I hate to admit it.

4. I wasn't implying that you didn't kno the meaning of the word "sciolistic." And it is okay because, as you have said so yourself, you haven't had any formal (or informal) teaching. You speak through your experience, and as that grows, so will your knowledge. We've all started in this manner, even her majesty, MIE. And your "passion" as I've called it (for lack of a better word,) is very refreshing, because among a bunch of uber bookheads, your voice is the only one that comes from the heart. I can appreciate that, because I can feel myself losing heart when I use my cold, hard logic (which I try to avoid to some extent.)

5. I have no idea how old you might be. I'm guessing maybe 15?

6. And lastly, I can see how this is getting personal.

I wrote this a while ago...But, I've lead my attention to other things.

Well, numbers one through four (first paragraph):

3. Don't put yourself down like that. Even if you don't believe that you are smart, act like you do, and others will believe for you.

4. You're welcome. You might think that you're losing passion but I think that once a writer, always a writer.

5. Fantastic, so we're both 17. Do you have that middle school, then highschool thing?

6. Because it seems that you have taken some of the comments personally, and if you did, it must be because they were personal, no matter how much the commentater tried to avoid it.

3. I've come to putting myself down frequently...It's actually a habit...I can't describe it. People agree with it anyways.

I'm trying to not do it, because my guy friend says that I shouldn't. People believe that I am, but I don't...That's the problem.

4. Awww....

5. Is that a good thing? And, you seem more mature than your age, and I need to live up to it. Yes, I do. Do you?

6. I guess?? I take some things personal...I am still trying to find my gift.

I meant live up to my age. Not you.

3. It doesn't matter whether or not people agree with that or not. We mostly say things to save face or to look like we're in the loop. And it would be wise to remember that most people view themselves very critically. Whenever I get into one of those moods, I always tell myself that most other people think I'm great and if they don't, they must be as crazy as I am. Conceit is always a nice cover.

And you shouldn't do because your guy friend says you shouldn't, but because YOU say you shouldn't.

4. I'll take that "awww..." as a thank you. You're very welcome!

5. Sure, it's a good thing. I don't know why as of yet though. Me, mature? Well apparently. I have a severe split personality though. You don't need to live up to anything. Remember, it's always everyone else who's insane. Which of course, is totally contadictory to what I said in #3. Whatever theory suits your needs...

And no, I've never had this "middle school." Here, it out of grade 6, straight to highschool, then 2 years of college after grade 11, and however amount of university you need, depending on whether you take baccalaureate, masters, ph.D, etc.

6. What do you mean, still trying to find your gift?

hi.

I must confess that my inspiration comes from my heartbrokens.

but sometimes I'm in love and happy.

Mine come from imagination,...neve been in love

Sorry I haven't been in a while.

3. That makes sense. I've gotten better...probably because I'm out of school and in the summer. I can't be conceited, I don't know why. I can't tell myself that I am wonderful or anything like that. It's another disorder that I have.

I'm working on it. It's gotta be more than me...for me it does.

4. It was, sorry! Thank you! :D

5. You are. (more mature) It's contradictory, but it makes sense.

Oh, really? I have elementary school (K-6), middle school (7-8), high school (9-12), then university.

6. I don't have any talents. And I'm trying hard to find what it is, but I'm not good at anything...or good enough. And I believe that everyone is born with a special gift that God has given them to share with the world. (Sorry if my faith offends you.) I just haven't found what He has given me.

All very good reasons. :D

Hey, I'm a teenage writer. I've taken to love poems recently, mainly int he interest of a girl I met a ways back. My relationship with her, though not as complete as I had hoped, is the source of my works. I don't really care how many times a certain type of love poem has been done, or if it rhymes or not, just so long as it has real emotion.

If a poem can evoke emotion, aside from disgust, in me than I think it is good.

However, if anyone would care to check out what I have and tell me how to get better, please do. I am always open to constructive criticism.

I completely agree. Thank you for saying that!

I can review your work! Same goes with me, but I'm putting new work out soon. Hopefully.

Cool, please feel free to review whenever you want, I'll be sure to check out some of your stuff when I get the chance.

On that note I should have a new poem up in the next day or so.

I'm pretty free right now, so I'll do it now. Thank you! I'd really like some ideas for my story, Lovely Blossoms. Or constructive critism. If you have the chance?

Okay, I'll look for it! :D

Btw, thanks for the add and reviews. I really appreciate them! No one really ever reviews me. So, maybe if you can pass on the word? If it's a burden, then don't bother. Oh, nevermind.

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