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Ill admit that. But its not like Im the only one thats said stuff like that. Assassins Creed for instance said the pope was a man using pagan artifacts to control others, and the main villians were offshoots of the Catholic Church. Not that my idea is as good as AC but still :/
1/7/2013 #31
First i apologize about posting the Assassins Creed comment multiple times, my phone is bugging the heck out right now. As to the humans being eaten, Im pretty sure I explained that earlier, but I will explain again. The term "Demon" usually applies to all creatures of hell. There are demons with high levels of intelligence, and acheive high levels of power through training, skill, and talent. But there are also entities in hell that are far more common that are animalistic, with little thoughts other than hunger and survival, that are more similar to monsters than to sentient beings. This type of demon is what would prey on human souls. The first type is what a human can become in hell.
1/7/2013 #32
Kay Iscah

So if you die in hell are you just gone?

1/7/2013 #33
It works sort of like this, no matter what you say, there is no definate proof of what happens to you after you die. So suppose there are three realms, Heaven, Hell, and Earth. Earth is different in that your soul is placed inside a body, and your soul is removed if that body is destroyed. Human souls are unique in that a soul survives this process, and they are forced out of that realm. Angels, as they fear human souls' ability to change, force them into hell upon body destruction using magic, which is the term used for any ability to change the rules of said realms for a time, as long as you expend energy. So, in summary, this means that for humans, "death" can occur twice, first on Earth in their bodies, then in Hell upon being killed again.
1/7/2013 #34
Which in turn means that demons and angels could have their own beliefs in the afterlife, but angels have attempted to force humanity into worshiping them instead.
1/7/2013 #35
Kay Iscah

This is your fake world, so you make up the rules to it, but I imagine this is a question other readers would be asking.

In another direction, what genre do you picture this story as? And what story rating would you aim for T (PG-13) or M (R)? I have a hard time imagining this could work at a PG level.

1/7/2013 #36
It would depend on what the person who ends up taking the idea is comfortable with. It would probably work better as M, but it could work as Teen it written well.
1/7/2013 #37
And genre would be Action, Supernatural.
1/7/2013 #38
And genre would be Action, Supernatural.
1/7/2013 #39
I truly apologize for these reposts, my phone is causing a strange glitch where if i am posting a reply to the thread and i receive a call or text, my browser lags and forgets several pages i have viewed and places me back two or three pages. If this happens to land on a post confirmation page, it reposts. Sorry
1/7/2013 #40
Kay Iscah

I think my next question might be how essential is the church element to the plot of this story? It doesn't sound like the characters spend much time on earth.

1/8/2013 #41
If I keep the story as I have it plotted in my head, the church bit would be nessecary, as it opens the gate to groups of humans with supernatural powers besides those that become demons. However I could make it to where the church is still comprised of humans, that have been taught limited angel magic, but they are being fooled alongside the commoners. Somewhat like, they've been informed of the war and taught how to fight demons and powerful non-church members, but the reasons why they are being taught to fight demons are false, I.E. they are working for their creator to rid the world of evil, but they are really just killing those that resist the Angels.
1/9/2013 #42
J.K. Weaver

First off I feel rather redundant posting my story about angels on here :P but Alas, I shall. I do really like the idea of angels being narcissistic, the little devils (see what I did there?) but I have to say Drencaldin21 I do really like your idea. I am a sucker for angels (as you can plainly see haha) and demons (and original ideas). and I'll tell you right now, I will probably be reading this if/when you put it up.

Title of Series: The Flight of the Angels (Hoping for a six book series) (title of series subject to change or up for a suggestion)

First book: The Rise of Avacyn

I wanted to do an angel story so I essentially came up with a (kind of non-biblical) way of doing so. The story takes place in at least 9 different realms (or planes) all inhabited by different creatures of different motives (i.e. Good, Neutral, Evil) The first arc of the series (books 1-2) would take place in the good realms (Arcadia, Eden, and Epistolia). In Arcadia (the land of God's Angel's of war) the general of the warrior angels, Avacyn, is watching over the Material Plane, Earth. She gets a call for a routine demon attack in the pit of Africa, to which she gears up some angels to take care of the problem. Upon their arrival back however they find the sanctuary in ruin. The body of angels lying everywhere, dead. Then, out of no where, demons entrap Avacyn in an invisible prison where she is forced to watch her angels die, over and over again. 200 years pass and Avacyn is finally free, she doesn't know how (yet) but all she wants to do is kick some demon *** and finally close the gates of hell once and for all.

The first book would center around her finding out who released her. Then there would be visiting other good realms trying to resurrect fallen angels and finding out how this attack happened (book 2). They would then venture to a now post-apocalyptic earth and fight some demons in search of the human that can help close the gates of hell (Book 3). Book 4 would be the demons figuring out that Avacyn is free and planning an all out attack on earth (where she is most vulnerable [because in this world angels are severely underpowered on Earth]). (Book 5) They then venture, with that human, through the various neutral planes (Aequus, Limbo, and Purgatory) fighting off insane monsters protecting the human. Finally book six is the closing of the gates of hell and a special twist that I probably shouldn't say on here(:

Worth pursuing or not?

1/9/2013 #43
Sounds interesting, but ambitious. What would the point of having so many realms? Is there a different sentient species for each realm? Also if Hell is one of the realms, is "closing the gates of hell" similar to blockading that realm, or does hell count differently? Lastly, what role do the other evil realms play? P.s. thanks for feedback :)
1/9/2013 #44
J.K. Weaver

I got the idea from Dungeons and Dragons (of which I do play because I am a nerd... what of it? haha) The purpose of the realms is mostly to inhabit the other creatures (and biblical allusions, there are three realms of each alignment (save for Earth) and three is the holy number thing) hell is a realm and yes they would be blockading that realm kind of upsetting the balance ... I haven't really thought that far ahead yet though. Here is the breakdown-

Acardia - the realms of the warrior angels such as Avacyn, another one named Ariel (a shout out to the first story I ever wrote) and the other named Eladrin (those would be the three main angels of the story. Epistolia- is the home to the messenger angels the ones that don't really do much as they are no where near as powerful as the warrior ones. this realm would be more of a "look at the damage they did here" I might also throw in the fact that the demons have ***ed things up so much that the dead bodies of the warrior angels are spread throughout all of the realms. Eden - is the home to the humans that die and go to heaven (it is essentially heaven) and saints. Angels are generally not allowed there but they break that rule to find out what is going on.

The Material Plane (earth) is after that - Where life is, humans and such. But is also home to a race of no-name demons, they are petty creatures not nearly as powerful as Named Demons (such as Beelzebub, Lucifer, or Ba'al) or Imps or Devils. Those creatures rarely occupy the Material plane until now when they full on attack.

The Neutral Planes that I'm not 100% sure about there has to be three because of balance and stuff but I don't know if they actually travel to all of them. As of now I only have one monster/creature/thing named the Comonius which I have yet to come up with a concept for yet. I know that the neutral planes are basically God's rejected creations.

The Abyss - Home to most of the Devils and Imps Pravus- the outskirts to hell sort of home to newly created demons or stuff and of course Hell- home to most demons, all of the named demons and where evil souls are tortured.

I have already written a short story kind of backgrounding the whole thing on my page. But it is seriously lacking in detail and everything I'm going to essentially rewrite it I just wanted to get out the idea.

Another thing I wanted to add was she was in fact released by a turncoat Demon (adorably named Lucy :D) and Lucy ventures through the whole thing with them.

P.S. No problem same to you! I am a christian so I believe all that stuff but I really don't get offended by stuff that I probably should be... I know that Supernatural (Season 5) should have offended me (as well as the movie Dogma but I still have it on blu ray and laughed at every joke [except at God being a girl... for some reason I really found fault with that.. not sexist just my belief]) but I wasn't really offended by your story. I can see why some people would but if Dan Brown can get away with the atrocity that was the Da Vinci Code I think you could do this (And even if Dante could get away with writing a book about the Pope burning in hell and get off scott free in a time where Catholicism was the dominant religion, I think you're fine haha) I'm not trying to undermine what the other person said mind you... Everything she brough up was valid I'm just agreeing with the last thing she said, namely, as long as you say that this is purely fiction and all that then you should be fine.

1/9/2013 #45
Kay Iscah

Drencaldin21, I think if you're keeping the church element, the more supernatural you make it, the less it feels like a commentary. So I'd stick with the angels masquerading as humans to help emphasize the fantasy/supernatural aspect.

It may be helpful to you to mine some angel mythology like the Nephilim. (I'm calling that mythology because it's possible the "sons of God" referenced as their fathers were humans, but many people interpret "sons of God" as angels.) And do a little research on the different types of angels and spiritual beings presented in Christian teachings.

Somewhat related, I'd also suggest you make yourself sit through Legion. Awful, awful movie, but it fits in this genre. The blink and you'll miss it philosophical line is "You gave Him what he asked for. I gave Him what He needed." The beauty of that line is there are two ways to read it. The first is the more "I know what God needed more than God did", but the look of realization on the character's face is more "He (God) planned this all along and I was faithful by playing my part". (Love being the two greatest commandments.)

J.K. Weaver .... this falls far more into the fantastic, though I'd have a similar answer to your "Worth pursuing or not?"

Mainly is there a purpose to the story? You've created a field with the potential to play through spiritual insights. But do you actually have any or is it just an adventure?

It's a nice Title. I'm completely burnt out on any story that's likely to contain an epic battle, but that's a personal thing.

One of the key differences between these two stories is who is cast in the villian role. Weaver is playing fast and loose with details, but you still have good angels and bad (mostly) demons. Dante's Divine Comedy may have poked at a Pope, but it was also an allegory which praised virtue and showed how hell was sin unfettered.

Dan Brown cashed in on the controversy surrounding the Da Vinci code (atrocity is a good word). But I think he was banking on it (pun intended) from the moment he set out to write the story.

Drencaldin21's story idea is a flip the universe upside down role reversal type thing....which is both what makes it intriguing and horrifying.

1/9/2013 #46
J.K. Weaver

Oh My Gosh Legion was such a bad movie but I completely understand what you mean.

I put that "worth pursuing or not" mainly to mean "do you like it?" haha if I have an idea I like I will pursue it whether or not I should... Unless it's something bad like crystal m***... -_-'

I just wanted to get the idea judged. The main reason (read: purpose) for writing this is because it's fun. I love writing and when I first started I was crazy worried that I would run out of ideas, now that I'm getting them I'm latching onto as many of the good ones that I get haha.

It is more fantastical indeed. I am worried about epic battles (My first story was all about a girl usurping an evil tyrant and that lead into the sequel which is about a team of soldiers from Earth teaming up with a team of soldiers from this magical world to take down an ancient evil, but I have a different idea to end that then an actual battle as I'm not sure I'd be good at writing a giant battle.) The only really epic fight (I'm hoping) would be in book 3 or 4 the one where the demons attack earth. The turncoat demon thing was kind of taken from Supernatural (I don't know if anyone watched the show but that was one of the key elements in one of the early seasons) but I have a different idea I wanted to do with it (plus a demon girl named Lucy? Come on! haha)

I do like the idea of flipping the world. I love good versus evil type things especially ones that really bend and morph the trope into something unseen or unheard of. Anything original is something that I praise. (I know my first story was rife with predictability until I reached a certain point where I was like, "Well what if she did the opposite instead?" and it gave birth to something better than I could have ever dreamed.) But you give someone an original concept, something that they've never seen before and it's awesome. Especially nowadays when it feels like everything is just ripping something else off (*cough Avatar *uncough)

1/9/2013 #47
Kay Iscah

I brought up Legion to show how you can have an interesting concept(s), but easily bungle it through mishandling. Some concepts are more forgiving to their writers than others. Legion is one of those film where I wonder if the original script might have been good, but then the direct or someone said, "Let's make things about special effects, guns fights, and cheesy lines with F Bombs. People won't get the religious themes anyway."

Dogma, while a bit crude for my taste, was a Catholic poking fun at Catholicism. It's comedy, but again there are several very deliberate messages laced through it. One of them is we pretend to know more about the nature of God than we do.

What I miss seeing from a lot of writers, particularly new writers, is attention to theme, intended or unintended ones. Without theme, a story is just "stuff that happens".

1/10/2013 #48

I'm actually really glad that I noticed this discussion. Mostly because I have been having a similar strife on whether I should actually work to post a story I've been writing involving angels or not due to my hesitation over 'offending' people. I really just been messing around with the story for my own entertainment because I feel like if I keep it in my head I'm just wasting it. But I haven't moved to try and post it.

I have a very open mind when it comes to these things so I personally am very hard to offend. I love the idea of Angels and Demons as a concept - as a separate creature from us. The war of light and dark.

But the connotations that come from it make me hesitate. Religion, probably the easiest way to tick someone off if you stray from what they believe.

I feel like they are so set as they are. Angels act this way (benevolent), demons act this way (malicious), and there are no greys in between.

Obviously you can take creative liberty with them as people have already done, but the backlash has me over thinking it.

My story (which has no title and probably only a prologue so far) would focus on the Angels as a race, I use the Hierarchy system they have (Archangels, Guards, Messengers, Guardians...) and put my own twist on it and their roles which I exaggerate. I plan on doing the same with the Demons. So, I guess it would be in a parallel universe. I don't want recognizable places or areas or even religions. But religion would still be present, though taking a backseat as more of a foundation for their purpose.

By doing this I want to use recognizable Angels and Demons. Two of the main are Gabriel and Michael. And I'll use Michael as an example. It's common knowledge that he's a sort of General of the angels. So in my story he acts as a General, and I focus on that. But should I stray from his 'dictated roles' will alarms go off? *sighs*

I probably shouldn't care if I offend because you can't make everyone happy but religion is such a touchy subject and I would rather not offend anyone. But the story is for entertainment, and hopefully I'll grow the guts to post it one of these days. Still have to do more research though.

Legion... I couldn't even watch that as I get terribly freaked out over old women turning deformed and I wont sleep peacefully for weeks. Constantine is another movie with strange angel lore, that brought up the idea of an angel having his wings ripped and turning mortal - which is a concept I plan on using.

For J.K. Weaver - I'd read your story :D I like the idea of realms and I see there's more than the typical three as well. And geez already six books ahead... I'd be lucky if I can plan out six chapters ahead lol

1/10/2013 . Edited 1/10/2013 #49
J.K. Weaver

I understand that with theme. I am a new writer and a lot of my stuff is things happen if you don't mind me asking (sorry if I come across as naive) but could you explain theme to me? I swear I'm not an idiot I promise. It's just what I hated about my high school was all of the English classes never did anything with Creative Writing (that's why I'm a creative writing minor right now) and theme was always a very ambiguous term to me. Like I know that my first ever thing I wrote the theme was don't be prideful, greedy, or wrathful. But its basis was from a Canterbury Tale so it had a rather obvious theme. I guess I could say that my theme of my first book was 'it doesn't matter how bad things are now, you could grow up to be a queen of a nation... not really but everything gets better" (in those exact words because that is the tone of the book) either that or "lighten up, a smile is the most important thing" ... Woah I never knew I wrote for a purpose like that... Thank you for making me realize that! But that begs my question of what my other book means... or this one for that matter. Like I said this is in the very much preplanning stage (I have written a little bit like the prologue and when she meets the demon because I loved describing her "Blood-red hair" :D) but since I'm not 100% sure where I want to go with it and stuff its sitting on the back burner whilst I think of things to add and fill in the glossary that I made for it.

AeonNoctis: I like your concept, as I've stated before I am a sucker for angels. The only hesitation that I ever have when it comes to angels and demons (angels especially) is that people tend to underpower them (For no reason) or they get the lore wrong to a point. Here is what I mean by that.

Underpowering: Angel's, depending on whether you are talking about biblical or Dungeons and Dragons angels (D&D angels are the ones that actually look like people and weren't created by God, they are the ones I'm writing about. and the ones I'd recommend everyone write about because the biblical ones are freaking weird) Angels are not weak to practically anything, thus making them really hard to be protagonists because they can rarely get killed unless you come up with a specific circumstance (like being locked in a prison that siphons out their power :D) So while demons have tons of things they are weak to (i.e. Holy Water, the cross, exorcisms, rebuking, and the like) angels aren't weak to things per se. The only few things I have seen were Holy Fire and a super special dagger that specifically kills angels (how convenient?) in Supernatural and my friend said that a Devil's Star does the trick as well but I have yet to see that come to fruition.

Lore: Again depends on what your going for, are you going for the seven-headed freaking insane creatures directly from the Bible? or the nerd Bible (the D&D Monster Manuel?) or (my suggestion) a heavy mixture of both? I just suggest you do your research (which is why it is taking me so long to start writing) Read the Book of Exalted Deeds online as a pdf or the Monster Manuel pdf reading specifically on Celestials they are a huge help with learning things that angels can do and how their society works. For me there are two things that I know too much about, Mermaids and Angels (if you couldn't tell by my main character being named Ariel XD) and one of my biggest pet peeves when reading stories is "The mermaid swam up to him and started singing about life under the sea, whist farting rainbows..." No. just no. That interaction would go more like this "The mermaid jolted at the poor man on the boat, not knowing the fate that lied ahead of him. It was too late, she already had him in her grasp and was pulling him to the depths. They were already 400 feet below the pressure was caving in the man's skull. The mermaids would eat well tonight." (sorry kind of dark) BUT THAT'S HOW MERMAIDS ARE! That is the real mermaid. and if someone puts something other than that I instantly close out of the book. Same with Any other lore that I know. So I would say Lore is one of the most important things (in my opinion, of course this is one man's opinion so take it as you would like)

Also thank you for the feedback! I definitely will start considering this as more than a side project.

1/10/2013 #50
Kay Iscah

AeonNoctis asked "But should I stray from his 'dictated roles' will alarms go off? *sighs*"

In Christian tradition (as presented in the Bible) most angels don't have wings, that's actually a bleed over from Greek mythology. So angel lore is pretty muddled as is. It really depends on how much you're breaking that role... I mean if you're having Micheal do a little gardening, whatever. If you're having him smoke, drink, and visit a brothel, that would be offensive. Just like it would be offensive to present Abraham Lincoln selling war secrets to the confederate army.

And no, the Legion recommendation is not for the general public. I was only recommending it to Drencaldin21, because it's an action/angels as antagonists/horror mix that might provide some ideas of what works and what doesn't in a story of this nature. There were little moments in that movie that I did like...they're just buried under the other mess.

J.K. Weaver , sounds like you get theme... It was fun reading your discovery of yours, and I hope I didn't come off as snotty. Sometimes as writers we discover the story theme as we go rather than start with it, nothing wrong with that. You're Lucy character actually begs a great theological question, Can a demon (fallen angel) find redemption?

"Again depends on what your going for, are you going for the seven-headed freaking insane creatures directly from the Bible?"

There are no seven headed angels in the Bible, that was another sort of creature (a dragon) and being from Revelations is quite likely a metaphoric animal (Revelation describes a dream and most Biblical dreams are metaphoric). Most angels in the Bible are described as looking like (often attractive/impressive/intimidating looking) men.

The Cherubim have four faces (and are a bit surrealist). The Seraph (or Seraphim) have six wings. But while these are creatures in God's service, I don't think they're directly called least not until later Christian traditions....kind of depends on how broadly you define "angel".

1/10/2013 #51
J.K. Weaver

When I said seven headed thing I meant the cherubim, (I haven't been through the biblical lore in a while... and I guess what I did was put the seraph and the cherubim together... whoops haha. But I've heard it takes a smart man to admit when he's wrong... I just hope it doesn't happen too often.

You did not come off as snotty at all. In fact if anything I'd say you really seem to know your stuff. And I am genuinely impressed. You came off as more of "I'm trying to help" than "Well this is what you need to do otherwise don't do it at all"

I'm having fun with Lucy and I'm actually thinking of something with her but I don't want to divulge it to the forums in case anyone here actually does end up reading this series when I post it. I do want some surprises in there. That is one of the things I love about writing: you can plan as much as you want, but in the end it really isn't you who decides what happens it's the characters. I've had countless moments where I'm like, "Alright you do this and you act this way and then this will happen." And my characters will just start completely ignoring me like the jerks they are and seem to be telling me, "Chill out, I got this." That's one of the problems with planning. Yes I've planned this series all the way to the sixth book but that by no means dictates that that is how the book will turn out.

I also feel with the whole "offending" thing is, for one, as long as its being posted on here (a website entitled fictionpress) you really shouldn't have to worry. If christians or anybody really, get offended by reading something that is clearly a piece of fiction than that is their problem. And the funny thing is is I consider myself a devout christian, (of course I don't read the Bible nearly as much as I should) but I do believe it and I wasn't offended one bit, like I said I sat through Dogma... I understand how some people can get offended by these things, but in my mind I feel that I am strong enough in my faith to read something like that and just file it under a good story rather than a hate crime. (Now if this was written on FanFiction... what would that entail? o.O) but seriously if they were offended by it or didn't like it they either flame it, to which you could report them, or they move on. Someone will come along who, like us, goes, "That is a very interesting, original concept, I like it!" you got to sift through the bad to get to the good.

1/10/2013 #52
AeonNoctus: I think you're fine messing with their roles a little bit. I'm making them into a genocidal, controlling race striving for a "perfect" being, while demons are just sort of neutral, hanging around in hell because they got their a** whooped a few million years ago. J. K. Weaver: I'm fairly interested in your story idea, a giant realm-spanning war sounds cool, with details on a personal level making it catching. I'm looking forward to reading it whenever you publish it. Kay Iscah: If you don't mind, there's an area of the story I'm a little sketchy on how I would make work, and with how helpful you've been I'd like to shoot a few things by you.
1/10/2013 #53
Kay Iscah

While I like fictionpress (I'm here aren't I), I also see it as something of a testing ground rather than an end. So I'll tend to give advice with the aim of mass publication on a professional level.

Writing for personal amusement vs. writing for a mass audience is a slightly different thought process (though I believe you can marry the two).

1/10/2013 #54
Kay Iscah

Drencaldin21, I'd be happy to toss around ideas. I wouldn't touch writing this with a hundred foot pole, but as I said before, that's because of direct dealings.

There is something intrinsically cool about the image of people with wings. I think it speaks to our own deep seated desire of flight/freedom and immortality. I have a couple of angel centric stories sitting on the back burner of my mind too, but they're of a very different tone.

1/10/2013 #55
One part I'm not sure of is the inclusion of powerful non demonized humans, similar to mages. I don't know wether or not there should be multiple groups based on their abilities (each group would have distinct powers), or have one faction with diverse members.
1/11/2013 #56
One part I'm not sure of is the inclusion of powerful non demonized humans, similar to mages. I don't know wether or not there should be multiple groups based on their abilities (each group would have distinct powers), or have one faction with diverse members.
1/11/2013 #57
Kay Iscah

I don't really like the idea of super-powered humans...or at least not living ones in this world. But I think how many factions should partly be determined by how long this story will be. Longer stories can deal with more divisions and subdivisions of groups than shorter one. If this was one novel, I'd lean towards a single faction. If this is a trilogy or series, then you might work in more groups without feeling cluttered.

1/11/2013 #58
Kay Iscah

So my friend and I were tossing about this world. I'm still stuck on the animalistic demons eating people and what happens when you die in hell. We were playing with the idea and came up with a thought that delighted us both. What if being eaten in hell is the way to reach God and the real heaven?

The demon beasts feed on evil, so when they "eat" you, they consume all the evil from your soul, and what remains passes on to the next dimension/plane. With mostly evil people, there's not much left, just a passing thought or nice idea, but good people pass through mostly intact and reach the otherside in a glorified form.

Yeah, sure it hurts for a bit, but the pain doesn't last. Only the good/purified soul remains.

This would open so many levels of irony.

1/13/2013 #59
Kay Iscah

I was thinking back over this discussion and realized I forgot to say that I thought "no matter what you say, there is no definate proof of what happens to you after you die." is actually a great theme and what makes this idea really engaging.

1/20/2013 #60
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