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Ready, set, ARGUE!!!


5/7/2008 #1
All American Grl

I don't think Universal Health Care is a good thing It's falled in the countries that have it.

7/7/2008 #2

UHC is all fine and dandy when you're poor and you aren't actually sick. But have you lived in states like Canada? My great-aunt lives there, and she had a biopsy done in november and she STILL HASNT GOTTEN THE RESULTS.

7/10/2008 #3

UHC as not "failed" in the countries that have tried it. It works, with it's difficulties, but it works. The USA is the only occidental country that does not have UHC. So the US is the exeption here, not the norm.

I am all for UHC, because I don't want to have to worry about paying when I'm fricking sick or bleeding to death, or what have you. And I'm fricking glad to pay the damn taxes, if it means some poor sap who didn't deserve what appened to them is helped by it, because it could be me.

And I live in Canada. And if there is something I love, and makes me stay here, it is its Healt Care system. And yes, I have been sick, and I have been hable to get help just fine. So have other peoples I know.

11/11/2008 . Edited 11/11/2008 #4
All American Grl

From the way I perceive it UHC has failed. For example: A 94 year old woman from England needed a hearing aid. The doctors put her on a 3 year waiting list. She came to the U.S. and got it in two weeks. Another example: A man in Canada needed heart surgery. They put him on a 6 month waiting period after the doctors told him that without the surgery he would die in 3 months. I have also heard stories from people saying their pets got treated faster than they did. From another perspective: Some people don't want to have to pay for someone else's health care. Others don't want people paying for their health care.

11/11/2008 #5

Yeah. People have to wait in Canada. Want to know the primary reason that man as to wait and be put on a waiting list? Because there is a load of other peoples waitting before him. It's not because the system is not more efficient than the US. It's because HERE, more poeple get to have that damn heart surgery. There's a lot of people that otherwise would not be able to aford it that get threated with this system. That's the reason for the waiting lists. It's not just the system that's at fault, it's primarily the lack of medical staff (Surgeon, medical doctors, nurse, ecetera...). I am sceptic that the ratio of Medical Staff here is less than the US. I can't say for sure, but I believe it is the same.

So, we help more peoples, and some are left behind. But hey, they have the same chances as everyone else. I'm happy with that idea, even if you aren't.

I am getting very tired of the old "ME! ME! ME!" song. Humanity as become such an egoistic cesspoll.

So yeah, nice flag you got there, my friend. How is it being an United-Statian these days? Oups, sorry, the US don't exist enymore. It's Obamastan now. (If you can't tell that the last two sentences were a joke, well, IT WAS!)

11/12/2008 . Edited 11/12/2008 #6
All American Grl

My point is, if you need heart surgery you shouldn't have to wait. Hear in the states you have to give someone the medical attention they need regardless of insurance, sure some places deny help but techinically it's illegal.

I don't think people putting themselves first is a bad thing. Sure it's bad once you pass the point where you would kill someone or hurt someone to improve yourself but for the most part putting yourself first is instinct. If I work hard and earn money but I have to give it away to someone that doesn't work then yeah I'll be mad because its MY money, MY well-being, MY time (spent getting the money), and MY life.

11/12/2008 #7

Well, I agree with you that you shouldn't have to wait to get heart surgery. But, after the surgery is done, you have to pay for it in the States. Just what a person with heart problems needs: the strees of additional debts.

MY point was that the hospitals here don't make people wait because they like to make them wait. They make them wait because they HAVE TO. There's others on that list. And they are being threated as fast as it's possible. I know I'd be pretty pissed if I would have to wait 6 months for surgery when i'm being buried in 3, but hey. If, to have an operation that could save my life, not only me but my entire familly becomes homeless because we can't pay the medical bills, well, you know, I'd think about them too. It's a tuff choice to make, and I just say you shouldn't have to.

And, hey, I work, you know. My a** off, at that. But I still couldn't afford paying for an opperation that would cost me more than my house would turn up if I where to sell it. I don't mind paying, but there's just so much pressure you can put on the finances of a man like me. So, all of that said, screw Private Healtcare, because I don't want to be screwed by it. Have a good day, I'm off writting a story.

11/12/2008 #8
All American Grl

In a way I understand what you're saying but as far as paying for a procedure, I'd just pay it. I may become bankrupt, I may lose my house. But I could get another job, save up for a house and in the mean time live in government housing (not my first choice but I'd rather live... in fact I'd probably ask to live with my parents again while I pay them rent). Then at the end of it I would come through stronger because I didn't rely on others (with the exception of the housing thing). As far as families go, I would make sure they were taken care of. I would probably ask them to live with their families but I would never want someone to pay for my costs with their money.

Have a good day as well and good luck with your story.

11/12/2008 #9

No don't make health care affordable to all! What's next free veterans care??? Those poor multi millionaire CEO's will have to cut back on bonuses BOOOOOOFUCKINGHOOOOOO.

12/18/2008 #10
Phantom of the Library

The only reason Universal Health Care has failed in Canada in any way is because our Doctors often are hired out to countries with privatized Health Care because they can make more money. This says absolutely nothing about UHC.

The idea that you can pay more money so that you get medical attention before someone else is self destructive. If I can pay more money for a heart transplant, does that make me a better person? Does that mean if I die I‘ll be missed more than the other guy? Absolutely not.

“If I’m willing to pay more, then I should be helped first.” Is this really the health care system you want? It’s an invitation for disaster, just an easy way for doctors and pharmaceutical companies to take more of your money then they deserve.

Cancer treatment in the US can bankrupt families, but, as long as it’s not you, right?

It’s just a callous and selfish way of thinking

12/27/2008 #11

Dude I'm with you I was being sarcastic.

12/27/2008 #12
Phantom of the Library

Lol I know, I was talking to the other people.

12/27/2008 #13

Oh okay,

12/28/2008 #14

I am a capitalist, so no.

First of all, people don’t just get things because it’s not right. Anything anyone gets should be rightfully earned. Why should the middle class or the rich pay for things. After all the elitests are the wisest men on the planet, and they can really help the economy. Without them, this world wouldn’t be successful. They create the most jobs and they make the most efforts.

So, you are saying we should take the rich people’s money and have the poor treated for nothing? If you don’t have the money and won’t consent to pay it back you don’t deserve that treatment. The market isn’t open to beggars and slum folks!

You are weak with a disease, fine be treated, but then please pay up. That’s the market. A hospital is a business like any other. You get things by paying for it or earning it, unless someone kind enough is willing to donate your sum or a portion of it.`

12/30/2008 #15
Phantom of the Library

Beggars and slum folks? That is the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. What about the single mother with a child who develops b*** cancer? She's a beggar? I guarantee she does more work than the ‘rich people’ you think are so wise.

Economic recession ring a bell?

These ‘wise men’, as you call them, are the ones who created the low wages at her job, directly making it so she could not afford the treatment. This seems fair to you? “They went to school for their money, they worked for it, they deserve it.” To an extent this is true, but, guess what? Someone has to do that job. Someone needs to sit in the same place every day by a conveyer belt and assemble some useless crap. So even if every single person in the US had their Masters, someone would still be doing that job.

So, what do you think is more fair? Everyone paying a small amount of taxes so employers don’t have to pay their workers more to afford health care, or the employer being directly responsible for how much wages he pays?

I think the answer should be obvious.

Next year the war in Iraq will have cost every man, woman and child in the US $450, and you’re against paying for UHC?

12/30/2008 #16
All American Grl

No offence, but some of the people that would benefit from UHC would be beggars and other people to lazy to get off of they're buts and get a job. If there's a single mother with b*** cancer, she could raise the money to get treatment. Most people aren't going to deny her that. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who don't deserve to get money.

What if she was a single mother with b*** cancer that didn't work? I don't want to give up my hard earned money just to help someone that doesn't deserve it. I also don't think the government should be aloud to use my money for programs I don't agree with. Personally, I think this shouldn't even be an issue, because our Constitution was specifically designed for smallergovernments and UHC will give us a bigger government.

As for the economic recession, UHC would actually be bad for it. UHC would increase taxes and historically, that's never, ever, helped the economy. Heck, when ever we get tax cutsthe government gets more money because businesses expand, so they pay more taxes, and they employ more people who then have the money to pay taxes and over all we end up in a time of economic growth. An example of why UHC would be bad for this recession is the medical business. Why? Because the doctors want to get paid, they don't get paid enough, they cut down on resources, more people are jobless so those people don't have money to put back into the economy, and we sink even farther. To sum that whole thing up: More taxes=economic recession (it doesn't have to be a big recession but it always happens) fewer taxes=economic growth. UHC adds more taxes would lead to a larger economic recession.

The people in the jobs you've mention could have tried to get another job, their situation is up to them.

I believe that if you want to help someone receive medical treatment, donate the money yourself, but don't force the rest of us to do the same.

P.S. I don't really mind paying for the war because the men and women there are trying to make a difference, but that's beside the point.

12/30/2008 . Edited 12/30/2008 #17
Phantom of the Library

The point about the recession is that it was mainly caused by your ‘wise men.’

Anyway, so your argument is that because 5% of the US is unemployed, and might try to take advantage of UHC, you’d rather scrap the whole idea? As for the people with the jobs I mentioned, you don’t get it; Someone has to do that job. Someone in the US will always be doing that job because your ‘wise men’ need them to.

Also, you didn’t address my point. Do you think it’s better that companies should have to pay more wages to their employees (which would most likely require Government intervention, anyway.) or should everyone pay a tax, specifically calculated to what they can afford (meaning percent of their income)?

But, I think I can some up most of your argument from a direct quote, “…donate the money yourself, but don't force the rest of us to do the same.”

Sorry, but not everyone is so callous. (Not that you’ve ever had to pay taxes.)

12/30/2008 #18

Small government big government that's mostly a pile of party b*** just like the terms liberal and conservative. Anyway UHC will be better for the working and lower class. Making health care affordable won't be lead to a cataclysm and as long as everyone is taxed 10% with no brakes for the super rich then it'll even out pretty well.

12/30/2008 #19

Sorry but this post is stupid offensive and cruel. Therefore I MUST DESTROY IT!!!!

I am a capitalist, so no.

Really? If you were a real capitalist you would be pro equal economic chance.

First of all, people don’t just get things because it’s not right. Anything anyone gets should be rightfully earned. Why should the middle class or the rich pay for things. After all the elitists are the wisest men on the planet, and they can really help the economy. Without them, this world wouldn’t be successful. They create the most jobs and they make the most efforts.

This post isn't THAT stupid just wrong. Just because you're rich doesn't mean you're smart. And that's not always true corporate-America has A been selling jobs out to China, and B all they've done for the last twenty years is buy businesses then sell the assets which is F*** UP OUR ECONOMY!!!!!!

So, you are saying we should take the rich people’s money and have the poor treated for nothing? If you don’t have the money and won’t consent to pay it back you don’t deserve that treatment. The market isn’t open to beggars and slum folks!

............ Yeah I do because the rich people can afford it. Know why? BECAUSE THEY MAKE BILLIONS A F*** HOUR!!!!!!!!!

You are weak with a disease, fine be treated, but then please pay up. That’s the market. A hospital is a business like any other. You get things by paying for it or earning it, unless someone kind enough is willing to donate your sum or a portion of it.`

This just disgusts me I hope you or someone close to you gets a disease and you can't pay to be treated so you know what it's like you disgusting excuse for a human being.

12/30/2008 #20
Phantom of the Library

I wouldn't say her whole post is disguesting, per say, just... callous.

I do understand the viewpoint, I just think that it's self destructive.

12/30/2008 #21

Yeah I find it disgusting and self centered. At least the last part. And I sorta see where she's coming from but it's b***.

12/30/2008 #22
All American Grl

Why would you wish that on someone?! In case you're wondering some of us have lost people to disease, myself included (4 times). Guess what? All of them had the ability to get treatment. Do you know why? Because it's illegal for a hospital to deny you treatment! If you can't pay for it they still have to treat you!

As for economic equality those people still have the same chance as everyone else with or without UHC. Now, whether or not they try is an entirely different matter.

To Phantom of the Library (nice name by the way. Books rule)- The recession was caused by government involvement in the loan industry. The government forced the housing industry to give out loans to people that couldn't possibly pay them. As for the other 'wise men' as you call them, they need to file for Chapter 11 (bankruptcy) and then get rid of the unions that have driven them to this point. (Did you know General Motors spends $70 million a year on V*** because their union makes them? That's a problem people, they're like the UN, started with a good purpose but now are corrupt and cause more damage than good.)

Back to SexyMarine-

Big and small government is not BS! Read my profile and you'll find out why! I'll give you an example now, "Any government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take it all away," - Thomas Jefferson. Keeping the U.S. government small is imperative to keeping our country safe. What do you think the point of the Second Amendment is? Look at California. The people gave their state government the power to tax them without making the people vote on it. Now they have more taxes and they're not happy. Give government power and they'll abuse it! That's why I don't want them to have control over our HC! They'd destroy it.

12/30/2008 #23
Phantom of the Library

Wait wait wait, you think Unions are the problem?... Not even gonna go near there.

As for economic equality, you're not getting the point. Some has to do that job. Someone will always be doing that job. So, if they can't afford Health Care because there is no other work for them, how is it fair to damn them because of this? But on the flip side, if everyone pays a tax then every person pays exactly what they can afford, and then everyone gets health care.

UHC doesn't take forever because we suddenly have more people who are sick or hurt, it's because the Doctors are hired out by other countries with Private Health Care because they can make more money there. This doubly hurts the Canadian economy because they also subsidize University tuition, meaning they pay for Doctors that the US hires instead of letting them buy medical supplies and equipment.

Whether you agree with UHC or not, it hasn’t failed.

12/30/2008 #24

All American Girl.

No it really isn't the second amendment isn't there to keep the government small it's to keep a tyrant out of power (we kinda missed our shot with that one). It's more dangerous to mess with the checks and balances system and give one branch of government more power then the others (like Bush did)

And the economic equality that really depends. Put yourself in this situation, you're a single mother you work three jobs you have four kids and you have to pay your regular taxes your mortgage and Health Care is unaffordable for you. Yeah it makes a difference and DO NOT give me the "oh they're just lazy poor people" B*** because that is a puny minority the majority of those below the poverty line are working up to three freaking jobs.

Four times? Make it eight here, (heart conditions run in my family)

12/30/2008 #25
All American Grl

heart conditions run in my family too.

The second amendment is there to make sure the people have the ability to protect themselves from tyranny, yes, but big government can become tyranny.

The point of the v*** thing was to show you that companies have enough money to supply health care for their employees, but other people force them to use it on stupid things.

Yes, I do think unions are part of the problem, at least in some states. In Michigan, unions cause companies to keep bad employees and they don't exactly have the chance to replace them. Unions wouldn't be so bad if every state was a right to work state, meaning you have the right to work but you have to be responsible and actually go to work. In right to work states (unlike Michigan) you must so up to work, you can't strike, and your employer can fire and hire someone better. In states like Michigan, the employer is on the losing end when the should be on the winning, because without them they have no jobs.

I understand someone has to do those jobs. What I'm saying is those people have the ability to work other jobs or they could try and get a new one. Its a simple as that. As for the single mother of four, if she's working 3 jobs (or for the sake of the forum, I'm working 3 jobs) she probably has enough health care between the health care provided from her three jobs. Even if she doesn't she should have enough money to buy a decent plan and still have money left over. (As for the taxes, they'd be going up with Obama's plan. I wonder how that helps people?)

UHCdoes cause an influx of people. Look a Mass. that state has UHC and people flocked to the doctors, for simply things like the common cold, or headache medicine. Why? because the could get a day off of work so productivity went down and the state started to have problems. (Gee wonder why?) UHC does cause doctors to leave but not necessarily because of money. Most doctors get fed up with work load they get! Seriously, who wants to put up with someone who wants a day off so they go to your job?

UHC has fail, especially when an animal can get a hip replacement fast than humans. It's also failed when your on a waiting list for 6 months to get heart surgrey and with out it you'll die in 3 months. Another reason it's failed is you could be put on a 4 year waiting list to get a hearing aid when your 94. In both of these cases the two people came to the US and got what they need when they needed it. No waiting list. Why? Because no hospital can legally deny you treatment when you enter.

As for taxes, well I've already said it More=recession Less=growth. What more do you need. If you really want to give someone the money, give it to them. Don't force others to do the same. Did you know that charity donations to places like, St. Jude, Shriners Hospital, etc. when there are lower taxes? This is because more people have more money so the want to donate. UHC forces people to donate and that's oppression.

12/31/2008 #26
Phantom of the Library

You consider UHC oppression? Most people consider it helping your fellow man.

Mass. is a different case then a country with UHC because any American citizen could go there just for the health care, while you have to be a Canadian citizen in Canada.

And the main fact is that you're demonizing people to try and prove a point. "Everyone always skips work when they're sick." Right...

You said you don't mind paying taxes to fight a war that doesn't concern you, "Because they're trying to make a difference," I'd rather have the Government spend my taxes on saving people than gunning them down.

12/31/2008 #27

Small government can be just as bad why do you think the founding fathers made a checks and balances system. And not all jobs provide free health care in fact most have pretty lame a** health care plans. And no taxes wouldn't go up with Obama's plan right now the middle class is paying higher taxes then the upper class (in proportion to their income) if we have a set 10% tax with ZERO cuts 95% of middle class citizens will see a 20% tax decrees even Republicans agree with me there.

12/31/2008 #28

i don't think that a universal health care system is good, in fact it rather scares me.

12/31/2008 #29

Why does it scare you?

12/31/2008 #30
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