Psalms 14:1
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Lucifer's Garden

Howdy! Thanks to any and all of you that decided to pop in here and take a look around. I figured I should get the ball rolling and talk a little bit about myself.

Who are you?

My profile name is Lucifer's Garden, but you can call me LG or even Katie if you'd prefer. I am a 20 year old anthropology major attending the University of Victoria in British Columbia, Canada. I enjoy writing, drawing, reading, playing video games, tennis, squash, and volunteering. I have yet to post any of my original work here, but I would certainly love to once I bother to actually finish something. I am woefully addicted to fanfiction (good fanfiction, and yes, it does exist), so if any of you are interested, feel free to check out my sister profile. I've been told that I'm pretty good, but...it's fanfiction. So don't get your hopes up.

http://www.fanfiction.net/u/446652/Lucifers_Garden

Why THAT name?

"Lucifer's Garden" is an inside reference between a friend and myself. Relax, people. ;)

Do you believe in God?

As a staunch atheist, I have no faith in any gods, demi-gods, supernatural entities, or divine creators of any kind. Try not to let it sour your opinion of me.

Why not?

I guess I've just never seen any decent, indisputable evidence in support of any creator, let alone a very specific one that appears to have a huge stake in mankind's outcome. And if there is some kind of all-powerful entity out there that is responsible for this hot mess of creation, I have a really hard time believing that we mere mortals could have any possible chance of understanding it.

How long have you been an atheist?

Since I stopped believing in Santa Claus - so, around seven or eight.

What do you think happens when we die?

As far as I can tell, nothing. Our brains die, our consciousness shuts down, and that's all she wrote.

Where do you think we came from?

I have no idea. I'm not an astrophysicist, nor do I have any desire to be. The truth is, nobody really knows (hint: believing and knowing are two completely different things) exactly how life originated. We have plenty of theories, of course, and some of them make a lot of sense, but I know that I was definitely not around 1 billion years ago to see how it all went down.

What do you have against what I, a God -fearing individual, happen to believe in?

We're all free (well, some of us are anyway) to believe whatever we like, so far be it for me to crap all over your rights. But it looks to me like there are so many things in this universe that we can't explain, and rather than rallying together to work at finding an answer, too many people are content to sit back and say "well, I don't understand it, therefore a divine creator must be responsible". That to me sounds both egotistical and intellectually lazy. Why not just admit that we don't know right now, and see about maybe finding out one day?

The way I see it, religion exists for two very fundamental reasons.

A) To try and explain the aspects of existence that confound us - "why are we here?" "who are we?" "how did we get here?" etc. Which, incidentally, can't exactly be answered by science either, but hey, at least scientists acknowledge that.

B) Because we, as the sole creatures on this earth that seem to have an awareness of our own mortality, are so completely terrified of death and the unknown that we invent afterlives and benevolent super gods to help make us feel better. It's much more pleasant to believe that when we die, we are actually magically teleported to a world of clouds and sunshine rather than an empty oblivion (it's also waaaay easier for our brains to process - can you really grasp the full meaning of nothingness?).

I am neither concerned about the former nor the latter. I'm here now, and while this world is very fascinating, I have but one short little life to live, and I don't want to waste it by worrying about where it all came from or what might happen after it's over. Of course, debates and conjectures are always fun too :).

What are your political leanings?

Oh jeez. Politics bores me to tears. I suppose if I had to tick off a little box, I'd probably call myself a liberal, but I don't care enough to elaborate much further. I'm pro-choice, pro-gay rights, anti-war, and anti-censorship. I'm sure there's more I could add to that list, but again...*yawn*. Feel free to peg me however you choose.

Clearly, you are completely lacking in moral fibre and are a dangerous threat to society.

A) That's not a question, and B) Hey, I'm certainly not perfect, but given that atheists make up less than 1% of the prison population (FYI, Catholics and Protestants combined make up about 79%), I highly doubt that me and mine are all that dangerous.

Do you mind if I pray for you?

Not at all! Knock yourself out.

So there you have it! If you have anything else you'd like to ask me, feel free to either add it here or send me a PM. And don't be shy to post your own stats! I'd like to learn all about the people who might decide to spend some time here (I'm horrendously nosy - I probably should put that in my profile somewhere).

9/16/2009 . Edited 11/23/2009 #1
Just Silly Me

I don't know if you picked this verse on purpose, but Psalm 14:1 is "For the director of music. Of David. The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good." I don't think of people that don't believe in God that way, and I'm not sure why it's so... I don't know, blunt in the Bible. Maybe it's because it's the Old Testament. But honestly, I read through your profile... and out of curiority, how much do you know about Christianity and are you open to it? I'd like to know before I said anymore. I hate opening the mouth and inserting the foot. Ttyl, JSM

9/16/2009 #2
Lucifer's Garden

Hi! And yes, I picked the title Psalm 14:1 as kind of a joke. I thought it was kinda funny, but I guess that's just me. To answer your question, I like to think I know quite a bit about Christianity, as well as a few others. I find religion pretty interesting, so I've spent a lot of time researching different kinds, and I even took a few Religious Studies courses to further my knowledge. And I am not entirely sure what you mean about being open to it. I certainly like talking about it and hearing different points of view, but I just don't ever see myself becoming a believer, even if I wanted to. So you are welcome to share your faith with me and I hope you will not be offended by questions or comments I might have for you. :)

9/16/2009 #3
Just Silly Me

Right, when I say "open," I mean, well, why exactly did you post this up? Do you want to know other things about my faith? Do you have any questions about my views or anything? You can ask me lots of things... :P. Can you explain what you mean when you say that you don't see yourself ever becoming a believer? I'm a little confused by that one... anyway, later... -JSM

9/18/2009 #4
Lucifer's Garden

I set up this forum to give people, myself included, a chance to have an open, friendly, and (hopefully) honest discussion about all things regarding faith, religion, etc. I just noticed that the spirituality forums tend to seem directed mostly at Christians, and I thought maybe someone would like to talk about another religion instead, or perhaps even atheism. Diversity makes the world go 'round, after all.

And when I said that I don't see myself becoming a believer, I meant that I don't think I will ever have faith in any kind of god. I've been an atheist for most of my life, and the odds of me being able to switch back seem slim to impossible in my mind. I'm happy with my life, and happy with my beliefs (and lack thereof), and I have no desire to change.

So tell me about yourself! How long have you been a Christian? What denomination do you belong to?

9/18/2009 #5
Just Silly Me

Okay, I guess that makes sense- yes, a lot of these forums are directed at the Christian people. I don't know. Yes, we have to respect other people's religions and tolerate them, but we're not supposed to accept them as like our own or let them override our faith. But yes, it's also interesting to learn about.

Why exactly do you not believe in God? Are there any specific reasons? Are there things in your life that you may blame God for, perhaps, because I know I do a lot...

Well, you still seem open to learning about other religions, so I'll go ahead and explain it like you asked. I'm a nondenominational Protestant (it's on my profile, I believe) and I've been a Christian... longer than I can remember. In fact, I'm a pastor's kid. It's a fact that most pastor's kids are extremely rebellious either on the outside or on the inside. I'd like to think that I'm more in the middle. I mean, which teenager isn't rebellious? But I accepted this faith because I wanted to- not because my family believed in it, not because someone forced it on me. I believed because I wanted to believe, and I knew that, well, this was how it was supposed to be. After all, God has worked many miracles for my family. (When I say miracles, I mean miracles.) I'm not sure how to explain it except for that I personally can't deny the existence of God. My favorite analogy is probably God's creativity- most man-made objects are circular or in the shape of squares. But if you look at nature, things aren't usually just square or circular- there's a variety. (Believe me, this makes it so hard for me to do art that I've decided that I fail at it in life and I just write things instead.) But yeah, that's my take on it- I just can't deny that there's a God. He's looked out for my family when he didn't have to. Am I a little sheltered? Yes, I'll admit that I am. But as a PK I still go through a lot of things other people may not get... anyway, I'll talk to you later! Got to make lunch... haha... -JSM

9/19/2009 #6
Lucifer's Garden

I like that you're a pastor's kid - most pastors I've met are pretty cool. :)

I am an atheist because I have never seen any conclusive evidence in support of a god/creator. I simply don't have that mechanism inside that allows me to go on faith - I'm the sort of person that likes proof, something tangible to go on. And books like the bible don't constitute as proof for me, because it was written by humans (very ignorant and biased humans, at that) and I hesitate to put my trust in the hands of a bunch of goat herders who lived 2000 years ago. Besides, the figure of Jesus Christ is a very obvious copy of other mythological figures, like Mithras and Krishna. So right off the bat, I'm skeptical about the validity of the Bible.

I'm not entirely sure how I could possibly be mad at God...wouldn't I have to believe in one first? Lol. That would be kind of like you getting mad at the tooth fairy. Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? Besides, I've got a pretty decent life. Not a whole lot for me to complain about ;).

9/19/2009 #7
Just Silly Me

So you don't think that there's evidence of what happened in the Bible is real? In my history textbook I have seen Moses, Jesus, Paul, and other Biblical names- so it's not just the Bible that says that it happened, it's also accepted as fact. See, Jesus isn't just a mythical person- he was actually real and he actually lived on earth and he actually died on the cross- also mentioned in my history book. There is other tangible proof- Noah's Ark was found, for example, and so were the Dead Sea Scrolls. Also, I'm guessing that you're a writer. Have you ever tried to write a story? If I asked you to write a story about a thirteen-year-old girl and forty other people to do it over a span of 40 years in 3 different languages on 3 different continents without collaborating with each other at all, do you honestly think that that story would make sense? Of course not. That's what's really unique about the Bible and you can't deny that- it's historical fact that it was written like that.

When I asked, "Are you mad at God?" I meant to ask if anything's happened in your life that's like really big- something with your family or other things that affect people. I guess that you're kind of like me then- we like our lives and all. But as you can see above, there actually is some evidence that the Bible is real and valid- and that the people in it actually existed.

So... what do you know about Jesus and exactly how much of it do you believe?

I look forward to hearing from you again soon.

-JSM

9/20/2009 #8
Lucifer's Garden

"In my history textbook I have seen Moses, Jesus, Paul, and other Biblical names- so it's not just the Bible that says that it happened, it's also accepted as fact."

Firstly, would you mind telling me which textbooks you're referring to? Aside from creationist books, I have not seen a single scholarly publication showing indisputable evidence that any of these people actually existed, let alone performed miracles and the like. I would love to get my hands on a copy and see what exactly constitutes as proof. If it's so factual, why is there still so little support for it in the majority of the scientific field?

"See, Jesus isn't just a mythical person- he was actually real and he actually lived on earth and he actually died on the cross- also mentioned in my history book."

True, he very well could have been a real person - that doesn't make him the messiah, however. If nothing else, he was probably just a regular guy who preached love and tolerance. And many of his supposed miracles were only written about several hundred years after he was said to have died. So, I find it hard to believe that any of these 'eye witness accounts' have any real credibility.

Secondly, I won't deny that the Bible has some historical value. It was written by men, after all, so it's bound to have elements of their lives and culture imbedded in the writings. But it's one thing to mention names and places that were real, and another thing entirely to imbue those names and places with magical God-like divinity. Writing about it doesn't make it true. And, frankly, if I were God, I would be really unimpressed with how my Word was managed. The bible is so confusing, so full of contradictions and loopholes, that it's no wonder Christians can't even agree on how best to interpret it. Bottom line, it was really divinely inspired, there wouldn't be so many errors to deal with. I's rather put my faith in something that isn't so heavily contested, if I must put it in anything at all.

9/20/2009 #9
Just Silly Me

Sorry about not replying for a while, I've been kind of under the weather lately...

Anyway, I'm talking about my tenth grade history textbook- I live in America, and from your profile, I'm guessing that you live in Canada. It's called "World History" or something... it was for school... so yeah, it's in there, right in the middle of Greece, Rome, Italy, and everything else.

It's no small thing to claim that you're the son of God or the Messiah. Have you actually read any parts of the Bible? If not, I suggest getting "The Message" by Eugene Peterson (I think that's the name) and it's in more modern words, if you're interested. Also, do you remember the facts about the Bible- that it was written so uniquely over such a long time span and all that? Again, there's no way any forty people could put together a story over 1500 years, in three languages, on three different continents, and still make sense. I don't know about you, but I definitely don't think that that's ever going to happen again. The Bible is confusing- so again, "The Message" is much simpler and easier to understand. The actual Bible- NIV, NKJV, KJV, and all the others- they're definitely not easy to understand. Christians don't really know how to interpret it because they don't understand the three original languages it was written in- Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic- and that's why a lot of people contradict it. Are there human errors? Yes, there is an example in John where the fourth verse is skipped out all together. Who knows where that fourth verse is? It's floating around out there somewhere... but either way, humans make mistakes copying their own work- when I type a story, for example, I forget to type some words or paragraphs sometimes- and it's the same way with when God told humans to write his word down.

See, if it was easy to prove the existence of God, then there would be no need for faith. Faith is what makes it hard for some people to do it, and that's why it has to be there- I'm a person that likes intellect and facts too. I like to know what I'm learning, why, and the reason behind it. But sometimes, you have to learn to let go and trust- which I gradually have over the years- and in the end, you have to leave it up to God. God wanted to give us a gift because he loves us- and I do like having a higher order being out there. It explains a lot of things...

again, sorry about not replying sooner, and this reply was probably not the best, but I'm really not thinking straight at the moment. haha. anyway, later! -jsm

9/23/2009 #10
Lucifer's Garden

That's all right, I've also been sick these last few days. I never fail to catch the flu just in time for classes to get down to business _.

I've read much of the New Testament and some parts of the Old Testament, but truthfully, it's been years, so my memory is quite fuzzy.

"Again, there's no way any forty people could put together a story over 1500 years, in three languages, on three different continents, and still make sense."

Lol. Exactly! That's my problem with the Bible. It doesn't make sense (to me, at any rate) because it was written by so many people over such a long period of time, and because it has been edited and ratified so many times. It's hard for me to trust anything that has been tampered with as often and as radically as the Bible has. You seem pretty well-read, so I'm sure you've heard of the Council of Nicea, for example.

So we're both in agreement that the Bible has its issues. That's cool. I guess the bottom line is that I would first have to have faith in a higher power, as you do, in order to embrace it fully. I see it as a fascinating look into the mindset of the people who wrote it, and the time they were living in, but basically that's it. But, to be perfectly honest, there are also many things in the Bible that I just plain disagree with and even find appalling in some cases. I know not all Christians (most, probably) interpret every word in the Bible as literal truth, and I must say that I am glad - if we ran our societies based on Biblical law, I think we'd be screwed. No offense ;P.

"- and I do like having a higher order being out there. It explains a lot of things..."

Comforting as the thought is, wishful thinking just isn't enough for me. And I find that it actually leads to a lot more questions than answers!

9/23/2009 #11
Just Silly Me

Council of Nicea... heard of it... yeah, they almost kicked the book of James out of the Bible because it's very contradictory... the last thing I'd say is that the Bible has no errors. After all, humans make mistakes, right? I do in my own stories, so of course they did 2000 years ago. Yes, not all Christians interpret the Bible correctly. Some people interpret it to mean that they're better than everyone because they're saved, and that's not true. Some people think that it's okay to judge people on what they don't know, and that's not true either. Yes, our societies would be screwed if we ran our societies based on Biblical law- because it's contradictory and all. I don't believe in a theocratic government. There's no perfect form of government. Since I live in America... we're not running our society based on a religion, but it's still messed up, isn't it? There's no such thing as a perfect society- there just isn't. We're human and we mess up. I'm not sure how to explain it, however. I don't know how to explain how I know that there's a God out there. It's just that my dad was writing his dissertation for about ten years now... and he wanted to give up on it because his professor wasn't emailing back after a few years. But when my mom finally told him to pray on it, and then the professor emailed him the very next day. Now, the dissertation is done because I helped him edit it and God gave him a way to finish it. When my father was three, he also got really sick and should have died, but then his grandmother prayed and in a vision, she saw a hand giving her the medicine she needed to give my dad. And when she did, he got better. I don't know. Those are definitely the first two things that come to mind. Call it coincidence, but I highly doubt it. Two coincidences usually don't happen to the same person- especially the first one. It's just really amazing. I moved around all over the world because of the dissertation. Now, it's finally done, and... well, I don't have to move around anymore. Haha. Again, I can't explain it. I don't really believe in coincidence and luck... okay, never mind. Later. -jsm

9/26/2009 #12
Lucifer's Garden

Ack, sorry for the late reply - school's kinda been kicking my butt lately! Just wanted to say thanks for stopping in and telling me a bit about yourself. Hope to see you around again! :)

10/4/2009 #13
Just Silly Me

Haha, sure, no problem. i understand the whole "skewl is kicking my butt" deal- going through it myself. Are there any other questions that you have for me personally? I'm still here and ready to answer :D. -jsm

10/5/2009 #14
Lucifer's Garden

I think I'm good for now. You were very informative :). Hopefully now other people will come in and start up a conversation, and give us a chance to tackle some other issues (or more of the same, perhaps)!

10/6/2009 #15
Fuckmeandyou

Sure what you want to talk about? I'll warn you though, I can be a bit of a dick when I'm argued with.

10/28/2009 #16
Just Silly Me

Did you want to talk to anyone specifically about anything? I didn't start this, I just replied to it... so yeah...

10/29/2009 #17
Kiwiman

Hi everybody, thought I might join in with this discussion,

Ok a bit about myself... hmmm. OK, I live in New Zealand I am 13 I like playing guitar, playing sports stuff like that. I am a Christian, and love debating it. You can say anything about God and it will not offend me, so feel free to be open. I am like anyone else on this, I guess. Love reading a writing, that kind of stuff. Probably not very good, but I give it shot anyway. If anyone can give me one really good reason why there is no God, I might give up my religion, so feel free to take any shots, it might take a while for me to get to you though, cause I will be reasearching it! : )

11/23/2009 #18
Just Silly Me

I'm glad that you're proud of being a Christian, however, it isn't good to debate about it. Debating about it means that you want to win for the sole purpose of winning. Discussing is implementing your faith without forcing it onto people. Also, there is actually no evidence proving that there is no God. There is only evidence proving that he is real. In fact, did you know that the Bible mentioned blood thousand of years before science discovered it? That's just me putting it out there. Please be careful when you say that you like debating about Christianity, however- it isn't something to be debated, because we're not superior to anyone just because of what we believe. It's a mistake a lot of people made in the past that I really don't want anyone else to make. -JSM

11/23/2009 #19
Kiwiman

I guess I didn't word it very well, I do not wish to win any debate contest, I merely wish to share my views and hear other peoples. Debate was a poor choice of words, sorry for the misunderstanding.

11/23/2009 #20
Just Silly Me

I was pretty sure that wasn't your intention, however, some people tend to misread it. Since you're here, I'm going to ask some random questions. Did you grow up in a 'Christian' home? If not, when did you convert? Was there ever a set time in your life that you decided to become a Christian? Is there a reason that you're a Christian, or are you just one because you can be? I don't mean to be pushy, but since you want to hear other peoples' views, you probably need to share yours as well. Feel free to ask me questions! -JSM

11/23/2009 #21
Kiwiman

I was brought up by Christians, so I learnt about God from an early age. I think I first gave me life to him when I was 7. I have not been baptised. I don't know what your views are on baptism, some people think it's necessary, I respectfully disagree. For me Baptism is a public stand, saying that this is where I am, I am going to follow Christ. I am getting baptised next year, but I think you can be a Christian without being baptised. I think I'm a Christian for multiple reasons, for example I want to give something back to the person who did so much for me. But then there's also some other selfish human thoughts, like being scared of going to hell. I love God, and follow him because I think it's the right thing to do. I am what I think is called a Protestant, I believe in God, but not like Catholics and Gehova witnesses and stuff like that. What are your views?

11/23/2009 #22
Just Silly Me

Not only was I raised in a Christian family, my father is a pastor, which means that he has dedicated his life to serving God in church. Most pastor's kids either outright reject God or become little cookie-cutter angels rebelling on the inside. I like to think that I'm more of a middle- I chose to believe in God of my own free will, not because someone just told me, "You have to believe in God because your father does." Speaking of baptism, my father actually baptized me. Baptism is not necessary to me as well, I have been baptized, however, as mentioned above. You have a very correct view on baptism- it is merely a public stance, not something someone has to do to become a Christian or anything. After all, the thief on the cross never got baptized. But Jesus still told him that he would see him in heaven. There is also nowhere in the Bible that says, "You must get baptized to be saved." Salvation is through Jesus, the only way. (John 14:6 here.) For me, accepting God was a process that took most of my life. It wasn't until high school that God seemed real to me. It's also a natural human thing to be scared of going to hell, I guess. I guess I used to be but then over time I came to love God because I really did love him and not to keep out of going to hell or something. It comes with age I suppose. I'm a nondenominational Protestant, although I used to go to Presbyterian church (can't spell) and Angelican all-girls school. But anyway, yeah, that's my story. Unusual to most but effective when it comes to witnessing. -JSM

11/23/2009 #23
Kiwiman

Do you know about the bible Hades? I find it a rather interesting subject to discuss. I found out about it a couple of months ago on a Word Of Life camp.

11/23/2009 #24
Just Silly Me

Hades is just another word for hell. Purgatory is more of something Catholics believe in and I don't know much about it. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with the Greek Hades, but yeah, that's basically the gist of it.

11/23/2009 #25
Kiwiman

OK, well that's not exactly what I thought, I'm not saying I'm right, but from what I've heard:

Hades is like the waiting room for the dead until Judgement day,

There is a new testemant verse somewhere that says the Jesus went to preech (Is that how you spell it?) to the people there after coming back from the dead.

That's basically all I know, but what I understand from that is that maybe dead go there and get another chance at Judgement day, or else why would Jesus preech to them? I'm probably waaaaaaaay off, so any feed back would be good!

11/23/2009 #26
Just Silly Me

never heard of Hades said that way. Again, I stand by it just being another name for Hell, just like Lucifer is just another name for Satan. It's spelled 'preach' in America but may be different over there. I thought purgatory was the waiting room. Not sure. But I'm pretty sure that he didn't go preach to them in the waiting room. Actually, there is a first death and then there is the lake of fire after the judgment. Before that they stay in Hell. Not really a waiting room but it is a waiting room, although there is no chance of going to heaven right after you land in Hades. We don't get a second chance after the physical death. For them, their spiritual death is going into the lake of fire after judgment. Therefore, Jesus never ends up preaching to them in Hell or the lake of fire, because those are the only places in which God's presence is absent. Does that answer your question?

11/23/2009 #27
Lucifer's Garden

Firstly, hello to Kiwiman! New Zealand is one of my favourite countries, like, ever ;P. I visited once a few years ago and completely fell in love with it! Welcome to the forum. I guess I might as well give up on the other thread and just concentrate on this one, since it's the only place people seem to be posting. Ah well.

Down to business! JSM, I simply must comment on your one statement here: "In fact, did you know that the Bible mentioned blood thousand of years before science discovered it"

I'm sorry, but that is just downright incorrect. Humans have 'known' about blood pretty much throughout our entire existence. It'd be pretty impossible not to notice the red liquid pouring out of your body every time a woolly mammoth took a swing at you with one of its tusks, after all. The ancient Greeks (and many others before them) were immensely advanced in the scientific field, and wrote volumes on human anatomy and physiology. They were the ones who laid the foundation of modern medicine, and they did it centuries before the Bible came about.

And as for the Hades discussion, that I'm gonna have to look up later, since I don't remember coming across it anywhere in the Bible (granted, it's been a while since I've checked!).

11/23/2009 #28
Kiwiman

The thing with the bible is that it can be interpretted in many different ways, I have asked about four people including myself about Hades and each has had a different answer, so it is ha rd to figure out what seems right. That's one thing about Christianity I find interesting, you only know half of what's going on most of the time. A youth Leader, Jordan was the first to tell me about Hades, I will facebook him sometime and try get some of the verses that he showed me and put them up.

11/23/2009 #29
Just Silly Me

Whoops, my bad. I meant to say that "life is in the blood." During the Civil War, they didn't realize this and kept bleeding the patients, thinking that it would help. My bad. The fact that life is in the blood was something that was actually a recent discovery. The Bible mentioned it somewhere in Leviticus, don't remember exactly where, but yeah, it's there. Haha, my bad. I can't believe I really said that. I'm a little distracted doing the editing of my dad's dissertation, which believe me, it's stressing and I'm again kind of half here and half not. FictionPress is saving me from falling asleep. How many places can a dude go in his life, seriously? Haha. Anyway, of course there are a lot of views out there... and I hope that it's clarified for you soon.

11/23/2009 #30
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