Psalms 14:1
A place for frank, open, and honest discussion about God, other gods, faith, religion, atheism, agnosticism, and anything in between. The title is just a joke ; .
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Irish toaster

Yeah I was religious but then had my doubts. Well; when I say religious I mean a casual Catholic in the sense that I believed in a God because people encouraged me too from an early age and everyone else was a Catholic. I was baptized, had holy communion and confirmation (both of which I just cared about the money really but hey! I was just a kid)

Around the age of 14, 15 I became Agnostic. Not because of any traumatic event but because I became more interested in Religion. By finding out more and getting interested in Religion I ended up losing my own. I'm okay with it though.

I always debate with a protestant at college. We're friends but never see eye to eye, good ol' debate. My brother is trying to make me an Atheist.

Some call us Agnostics indecisive but I'm just waiting for the right experience and/or evidence to make my own mind up.

12/18/2010 #61
Lucifer's Garden

I know a few fellow atheists who like to scoff at agnostics for being 'on the fence', but I've never really understood why they have a problem with that. Not knowing/caring whether or not there's a god seems like a perfectly valid stance, in my opinion. And, after all, I consider myself an agnostic atheist (yes, that is a real thing!) in that I don't believe in any gods, but recognize that nobody can really know 100% either way.

But hey, it's cool that you have a debate buddy on campus ;P. I used to have an evangelical classmate that liked to start arguments with me - in a fun, spirited, non-hostile way that is - but he recently converted to Mormonism and is now doing missionary work in South America. Now I'm surrounded by similarly non-religious people who don't care enough to debate and it's super boring :(. Oh well, if that's all I have to complain about, then I must be pretty lucky!

How has your family been dealing with all the scandals in the Vatican lately? My grandmother is very Catholic and is horrified by it, enough that she has taken down all her pictures of the Pope and wrote an uncharacteristically angry letter to some of the high-ranking bishops. She still has her faith, but I think she has become so disillusioned with the Catholic Church that she has pretty much turned her back on it.

12/19/2010 #62
Irish toaster

Being Agnostic is quite liberating I think. In the sense that I can live life without feeling an over-bearing need for divine intervention or guidance. Though still have a mild hope that,perhaps there is something to look forward to after life, but just in case: I'll live life to the full. Seems good on paper however I know that it will be through my expierience in life that I will be tested to lean one way or the other. I think events that are to come will make me reject a divinity (maybe in anger) or embrace it (for fear of death maybe when I'm old and frail) who knows really. Right now though I have a casual, intellectual and tongue in cheek view of religion which is interesting. maybe in the future I'll swing one way or the other once I find out the nitty gritty truth.

Mormon eh? Nice. I have two good Mormon acquaintances both at college. One is Irish, the other American who did work in Arizona I think. He gave a special lecture as a student to the class on Mormonism. Needless to say I will never be Mormon. All due respect and all but my non-chalant semi-search for a religion I might get into, continues. As for your boredom in things Religious I guess that's why you set up the Forum, good stuff. Interesting place to debate for the sake of it and by all faiths.

My family consists of 2 casual Catholics, 2 Atheists and 2 Agnostics and a Dog (I have not been able to determine the dog's religious affiliation :) ). So as you can imagine the Vatican scandals did not really shake our family. However me, my Dad and Mother were glued to the unfolding stories that occurred and ARE occurring. My Mother has said that she believes its only a few priests so the Church shouldn't be blamed, my Father dosn't like the clergy and damns the Church as courrupt. I personally think that the Catholic Church is not a viable moral guideline for modern soceity. It's politics in disguise as it has been for years. I would (if I were Religious) and as Soren Kierkegaard the Philosopher stressed, concentrate on Faith rather than the Church. To be a Christian you shouldn't have to follow the Church.

Anyway, I digress.It hasn't had a big impact. My grandparents are all very religious and I don't know how they have reacted. I assume they're still faithful Catholics. After all it could be seen as evil in man, not God who apparently gave free will to humanity so in that sense I agree to an extent. How God allows these evils to happen and then apparently save others in miracles is, though, beyond me.

12/19/2010 #63
Lucifer's Garden

Yeah, Mormonism is...interesting, lol. I find most religions have a bit of a crazy streak to them, but that one is especially odd in my opinion. I can't help but equate it with, like, Scientology or something ;P. Although, to be fair, every Mormon I've ever met has been ridiculously nice and friendly, so I really have nothing personal against them.

And I agree with you about the Catholic Church not being the best moral compass. I mean sure, on the surface they preach good things like love, forgiveness, and all that jazz, but I really do think it has just become this corrupt fraternity that cares more about protecting its clergy than the welfare of its followers (children especially!).

Plus, the Pope looks like Senator Palpatine from Star Wars xD. So there's that.

12/19/2010 #64
Irish toaster

Mormons do seem to be nice. Except I took one of them up on Homosexuality. The guy didn't approve of them, along with my Christian baptist friend so I had a big debate, verging on argument, but civil for the most part. I believe in Gay Rights and that it's NOT simply choice as many would say it is.

The Pope certainly does. There are the whole Nazi affiliation jokes but Senator Palpatine definitely fits the bill:

12/19/2010 #65

Hi! (randomly jumping into forum conversation)

I am Buddhist, and also Bisexual. i saw in the forum that you (Lucifer's Garden) have been called a "baby eating heathen". I've been called a "worthless piece of hell-bound excrement" so I can empathize. ;)

To comment on the LGBT and religion issue; I just don't see the problem. Why would god (if he exists) have a problem with two people of the same gender loving each other? Especially when HE created them to be that way.

It really doesn't make sense to me

2/10/2011 #66

Oh, and btw Lucifer's Garden: You're really pretty! :)

2/10/2011 #67
Lucifer's Garden

Aww, why thank you ^_^. And welcome to the forum! It'll be nice to get a Buddhist perspective here.

I agree with you about the whole LGBT + religion issue, but I think some religious people would argue that being gay/bi is not something God approves of, and is an unnatural 'lifestyle choice' that shouldn't be tolerated. Which is bull, in my opinion. Sexuality is not this binary 'straight vs. gay' light switch that we can flick on and off whenever we want to (with apologies to Ted Haggard ;P), and despite what some people would have you think, nobody is completely 100% straight or 100% gay. It just isn't that black and white. And I personally don't think that that's anything to be scared/ashamed of.

But all those arguments aside, at the end of the day - who's business it is who one sleeps with or falls in love with? I mean, even if it was a lifestyle choice, does that somehow make it up for review? I say that as long as everybody's a consenting adult (or two consenting young adults), the rest of us should just butt out and focus on our own issues. :3

2/10/2011 #68

Hey. I'm Fi or Ami. Doesn't really matter.

9/21/2011 #69
Lucifer's Garden

Hello Fi/Ami! Welcome to the forum. It's been pretty quiet for a while but hopefully a new arrival will stir the waters again.

So what brings you here? :)

9/22/2011 #70
A Fire Rose

Honestly, homosexuality is not natural. That does not mean that homosexual people should not be loved or respected, but I will not accept their actions as right. If it was just as natural for men to be with men, and women to be with women, why can they not reproduce?

10/22/2011 #71
Lucifer's Garden

Well that is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Ignoring for a moment the fact that homosexuality is a well-documented natural phenomenon, in other species as well as our own, the fact of the matter is that you don't have to like it. There was a time when marriage laws were contingent upon the production of offspring, but I think it's pretty clear that that is no longer the case. If it were, wouldn't we have outlawed sterile heterosexual couples? Or marriage between elderly couples who may be long past child-bearing years?

Bottom line, as far as I am concerned, people can sleep with/fall in love with/marry anyone they like. It's nobody else's business and doesn't reflect on anybody but the consenting parties, so why is it even an issue?

10/23/2011 #72
Irish toaster

Yup even gay penguins, why would a God who would not want gays make gay penguins? ;).

10/23/2011 #73

If it was just as natural for men to be with men, and women to be with women, why can they not reproduce?

Because sex isn't just for reproduction. It's a way to show that you love someone and a confirmation of a deep and special bond. Unfortunately there are also people who force others into sexual intercourse of various kinds but that's got nothing to do with love.

"Love is love, and love is pure." Simple as that. If it isn't pure it's not love.

In my opinion it's more natural for two guys, or two girls, to live in a loving relationship than it is for a 60-something man to marry a teenage girl and having children with her.

10/27/2011 . Edited 10/27/2011 #74
Hey meager Christian here. Yes I am Christian. I hope it's ok if I join? ... Eh. If you can't tell, I'm a girl, and I try to be polite, especially online, but I'm naturally competitive, rude, sarcastic, etc. forgive any snide remarks I may accidentally let slip. I have a live and let-live attitude. So yeah :3 I don't have much patience for the whole 'I am Christian and therefor I am right and you are wrong' bs. Can't stand it. Personally, I've been shown certain verses in the bible where gays are frowned upon. Still, all it mentions is sex and lust, not love. I believe you're born gay. Yell at me, as I'm sure you will. I don't really care. Oh, one more thing. Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, will ever shake me from my faith. Now if you can only learn the difference between faith and religion... (Oh crap I'm about to go on rant mode so I'll just leave and please allow me into your conversation, ok??)
7/24/2012 #75
Irish toaster

Wow, been awhile! I have no problem with a person's faith as long as it does not impeach in my life or threaten what I hold dear so you're fine by me Silence.

I prefer Christians who are more about faith than doctrine. More about a loose morality based upon their prophet rather than these Bible bashers. I have good Christian friends who, while I may debate with fiercely, still see that the Bible is certainly not to be taken literally.

7/24/2012 #76
Ok that's good. Well. Truthfully yes there's a lot of metaphorical mentions in the bible. At least, they're metaphorical now, like how sinners in the OT were tortured and killed. =_= it's not true now at all. You're not supposed to judge people, you know? It aggravates me, honestly, that people are so consumed by religion that they assume that all who don't believe exactly what they do are going to hell or are awful people and 'a danger to society', or whatever else your faith says. I love talking about the bible. Even with atheists. I don't know why but I love conversing, though it would be ridiculous and presumptuous of me to believe I knew everything in the bible.
7/24/2012 #77
Irish toaster

I like debating (and often arguing) with Believers and Atheists. I find myself sometimes being devil's advocate, playing the other side. Often I try to defend Christianity from my extremly atehist friends. They don't push me too much though because, well, I'm mad into this stuff and I got a lot of debate ammunition ;)

The problem I have with the Bible really is that it contains only 4 out of abour 50 gospels, put together for the benefit of an Emperor, Emperoror Constantine. It was more a political construct than anything else, even it's moral are so wrong. Only now are we begining to say: "Hey wait, this isn't right" and moderate, liberal christians are now emerging due to the hammer blows by secular thinking.

But hey, I am all for faith in SOMETHING. I mean, belief in a caring entity can't be too bad right? Humans need something to aspire to and feel belonging and as an agnostic, many times I have wished for something to believe in, to take care of me. For me though, I walk alone and will die either at random or because of my life choices. There are pros and cons though to every viewpoint :)

7/24/2012 #78
I was agnostic once, so I definitely see your point. Though, I was raised in a Christian setting with faithful parents and church and prayers and all. So even so I grew agnostic, though I believe in 7th grade I first met true Christians--my age, outside of my family-- and finally became a faithful believer. I totally understand looking up faiths as a curiousity or whatever. What bugs me is when people look into faiths only to be able to mock them. I must admit, there are aspects of many Christians that ashame me. That's why I've got to prove we're not all bad. The thing about faith is that it CANNOT be proven. No theory can be proven, at least, not in this life. That's why I love it so much; you just have to look and see what you believe. I'm really curious about faiths such as Buddhism. I don't know much about that faith, other than the fact that it's based off of the guy named Buddha. (He was a priest or something, right?) I just feel that it's only fair to know what I'm talking about before I decide that everyone else is fools like so many Christians do. Though I will never call someone a fool unless their attitude proves to me that they are one. Um.... This is a weird ramble. Sorry for talking weird, I have to read Jane Eyre for school and the wording is annoying my brain.
7/24/2012 #79
Irish toaster

No problem with passionate, well-meaning rambling ;); besides you're points are valid.

The problem lies where subjects like aborrtion crop up. Now, it's all well and good to do what people believe with different faiths and no faith at all but does soceity allow abortion? Should Religion be taught in schools? Do we allow a sick and in pain person to die? Touchy, but interesting issues to say the least. But hey, we're rational people, we can disagree; sadly there are those out there who will literally claw at eachother like damn rabid animals for worhshipping a different God, or even for worshipping a different aspect for the very same God! Derp.

7/31/2012 #80

Something very strange with my system of belief.. I'm a heavily Conservative Jew and gay. One side of me is extremely faithful, caring, empathetic, loving, then there's another side of me that's very misanthropic, nihilistic, disgusting, enraged. Most Jewish people in America are pretty liberal (as i am too) and the thing about us is we don't go door to door trying to convert everyone in sight. In fact, if someone tries to convert they're meant to be talked out of it to make sure they take it seriously. Conversion process can take a year or two typically. Not pointing fingers or saying mine is better, but I believe in respecting everyone's faith and lack thereof.

Had someone come up to me while walking around in downtown where I live asking me my stances on abortion, rape and the possibilities I might burn in hell with gnashing teeth, stuff like that.. That's just not how you approach someone when trying to talk about religion. Faith should be personal too. It shouldn't be about converting everyone - it shouldn't be about your ultimate fears either. Religion shouldn't be used as a weapon like it has been at times forever..

have to go to work, i'll post more later

5/19/2013 #81
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