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Sakka-Fenikkusu
Are you a supporter of fanfiction? Do you think it's helpful or damaging to authors?
11/6/2006 #1
Midnight In Eden
there's a few threads on this.

i'm very anti-fanfiction for the following reasons

- writing fanfiction is essentially stealing someone elses's characters and background story, which is just pathetic.

- it's detrimental to writers who then cross over to original fiction because they can't create credible characters because they're so used to the comfort of fanfiction

- most of them are just horny authors trying to get their favourite characters together.

not a valid form of writing IMO.

11/7/2006 #2
Sakka-Fenikkusu
Agreed.

IMO?

11/7/2006 #3
Midnight In Eden
"in my opinion"
11/7/2006 #4
Sakka-Fenikkusu
Ahhhhhhhh. I knew that. I was just testing you.

.......... You passed.

11/7/2006 #5
Charming Dice
I'm not a writer of fanfiction, but I think it's helpful for many people. It teaches writers how to keep their characters in character, because fanfiction sites have readers that are willing and waiting to flame anyone who's characters are even remotely "OOC." And in learning about their favorite characters, the writers gain a base to start from when they create original works.

Sometimes writers (ususally newbies) have a hard time coming up with a good plot, so they don't write as much. Fanfiction gives them an excuse to just write randomly about their favorite show or whatever without feeling any pressure. That may seem silly, but it still gives them confidence and writing experience.

Of course, it can hurt those who start to rely too heavily on someone else's characters. The best type of fanfiction that I've seen are those with original characters. Someone can take their fanfiction plot, keep their OCs, replace anything they don't own, and change it into a original story.

So basically, fanfiction is like a training exercise that some people want and others avoid. Some very good writers on this site started out as fanfiction writers.

11/8/2006 #6
Sakka-Fenikkusu
Also a valid point.
11/8/2006 #7
Royal Bliss
I do not like fanfiction at all.

I've said this in another thread but I'll say it here. The majority of fanfiction is mainly just any "writer" BSing a story just so they can have two characters (mainly from anime) be homosexual with each other. Or so they can incorporate themselves into the story to have sex with a certain character.

Also you may have noticed that more people flame on fanfiction.net. It's usually not CC(which they'd claim). Obviously. I don't see how "You are a fucking moron" would help anyone at all. More people take fanfiction too personally and think of it as an attack on their person if someone writes their favorite band or character doing something they don't approve of. Barely anyone flames anything on here. If there is flaming on fictionpress it's usually done by that of someone who does write fanfiction as much as regular fiction. They're angry anime kids. And they're so used to being flamed and flaming that they pretty much pounce on any given opportunity.

I realize the majority of people on this site love anime(which I was not aware of until they put up the forum). I DO NOT mean to offend any of them/you at all. Though I do not like it, you can have fun and watch whatever you want. Do your creepy little roleplays or whatnot. This is just my view on the matter, I'll respect yours; you respect mine.

11/8/2006 #8
Burnt Bread
I don't think fanfiction is stealing off other people's ideas at all.

It's all about living what you love, right? By writing about characters you like in senarios you like, you're not only entertaining yourself, but also many other people with similar interests as you. It's also creating hype for a piece of work, and I think all publishing authors need to have a comcept of marketing stratergy . Fan-generated content can be helpful to authors who want to see how their work is doing, what people think, and to get an ego boost.

I agree with Dice. As long as you're writing, you're learning. Writing something is infinately better than writing nothing.

If fanfiction isn't a form of writing, I would question the analytical essays people write on fiction. Isn't that doing the same thing? Using someone else's characters/plot/whatever to set up your own? And what of biographies? Arguably, their success comes from a character that most of the time, the authors don't own. And what of mockumentries and funny skits/animations? Can we say that because most of the ones on the internet play with the characters of Harry Potter or Xmen (or the lastest movie in the cinema) that they're not valid, original creations?

And would you say that the Star Wars notebooks that the Star Wars official fan club has put out is ripping off Lucus's idea for profit, or are these sorts of things fan service?

Anyway, that last point was totally off track, but the point it, when someone starts dismissing fan activity (one of which is fanfiction) as juvinile and cheap, then there's a whole lot of questions that also must be considered.

Eh... yeah, that's the end of my rant. And I must mention now that i'm not a big fanfic writer, but wouldn't it just make my day to read something about my work when i get something published... smut really isn't an issue for me.

11/8/2006 #9
Royal Bliss
I would question the analytical essays people write on fiction. Isn't that doing the same thing?

Uhh not at all. They're ANALYZING them. They're not having sex with them.

11/8/2006 #10
Midnight In Eden
Right okay, your references to analytical essays aren't at all really valid. Those are not aiming to be fiction. They are instead commenting on fiction. Again with biographies, those are fact. Completely not fiction, altogether different forms of writing.

Now onto the Star Wars notebooks, I'm assuming those are stories about the series put out after it was done? I can't really comment on them cause I don't know what they are.

I completely disagree with the statement that "As long as you're writing, you're learning." That's absolute bullshit, as long as you're open to concrit and responses from other people then you're writing can improve. As long as you're writing means you've got something to improve. Doesn't mean you're learning at all.

When someone starts dismissing fanfiction, they've normally got a point. Like, the majority is NC-17 smut, with no point and a lot of fantasies involved.

ps. RL, I freaking love that post.

11/8/2006 #11
Sakka-Fenikkusu
I hate fanfiction that is made for the sole purpose of pairings, so I don't read a lot of ones that remotely hint at romance. But I do like a very select few and am guilty of writing one or two.
11/8/2006 #12
Sakka-Fenikkusu
I suppose. *painfully neutral*
11/8/2006 #13
Royal Bliss
I hate fanfiction that is made for the sole purpose of pairings

Every piece of fanfiction nowadays has random pairings and a whole load of sex. Ironically enough they're mainly written by virgin 13 year olds. There is barely any that doesn't.

11/8/2006 #14
Burnt Bread
Ok, fair enough, yes, essays are analysing fiction, but the fundamental principle of writing fanfiction is the same. Fanfiction is also a kind of analysis on the original fiction because in order to write fanfiction, you must first take it in and reproduce it in a way that will inevitably reflect some of your ideas/standards/taking on the world. And, yes, i conceed that some fanfiction have sexual content, but that is a reflection of an author's mindstate, not their ability to write and romance written well can be very powerful.

As long as you're writing, you're learning. Being open or not open to concrit is an irrelevant factor. If you're writing, they you're drawing on an internal responce to the world unique to you. The only person who can concrit that is yourself and the only way to do that is to write.

As long as you're writing means you've got something to improve. Doesn't mean you're learning at all.

People who don't need to prove anything still write, ie, the Dali Lama (and before any of you *suspcious glance at RL* go on to make dodgy jokes about sexual or nonsexual nature of his works, please refrain). Writing is an expression, reflecting on a process, not a work-in-progress.

Dude, seriously, you're generalising by saying that most fanfictions are about pairings. I don't think it's fair to dismiss fanficition altogether as a valid form of writing because of a little smut-shifting. There are lots of genuinly good fanfictions out there that are written very well by very good authors. There's alot of shifty stuff on fictionpress too, does that mean that all fictionpress writers write smut? Nuuuu.

Maybe i wasn't clear on my points the first time. I was arguing to

1. the notion that using someone else's characters is pathetic. I made a counter point by raising the notion of other media that use unoriginal characters and questioned their pathetic or non-patheticness and made reference to other fan generated products/activities.

2. fanfiction not being a valid form of writing because of the smut involved. So, it's ok for original fiction to have alot of smut, but not fanfiction? The romance section on this site seems to be pretty popular...

Ball's in your court.

11/8/2006 #15
Midnight In Eden
I'm so sick to death of people who epouse this idea that just writing is good, is learning, is all you need to do *blah* *blah* freaking *blah*.

Writing is a work in progress. You don't just leave something after writing it. You edit it, you look through it, you reshape it. You don't just leave it at one draft. Being open to concrit is the most important part of writing. Well if you want to improve. I don't know why you wouldn't write unless you wanted to improve. I don't understand your example of the Dali Lama, (and it's Dalai Lama), as he is not writing fiction. I haven't read anything from him and I don't know if he needs to improve. I never said anything about having something to prove, more having something to IMprove ie, once you finish a first draft, you've got something to improve on.

I want you to understand this. There is fiction, there is non-fiction. The two are mutually exclusive. Don't question that. It's a fact.

Fanfiction is a way for people to entertain themselves and others by taking someone else's characters, background story and making up crap to satisfy themselves. (generalisation prehaps, but also often true). To me, it's not a valid form of writing. Using someone else's characters IS pathetic, you aren't learning to shape your own characters, you're stealing someone else's. AGAIN, FACT. The only other media you mentioned that did not have original characters was some Stars Wars thing and I'm willing to bet that I'd argue that that was pathetic as well. Genuinely good fanfiction? Great, what are they about? What makes them great? What are their motives in writing it anyways? I can think of two, they're doing it for personal reasons (ie i want that character and that character to finally get together) or they're not creative enought to think up their own work.

Fictionpress is not a beacon of amazing work either, there's a lot of crap out there. But at least they're trying to create their *own* work.

I've said this in another forum, writing fanfiction can actually be detrimental. This because it's unoriginal and writers don't have to think much. Then they come to original fiction and realise they have to create their own characters, backstory etc. It's a difficult transistion, it's just like them starting to write again. So how is that helpful?

That is my argument. Again.

11/8/2006 #16
Royal Bliss
People who don't need to prove anything still write, ie, the Dali Lama (and before any of you *suspcious glance at RL* go on to make dodgy jokes about sexual or nonsexual nature of his works, please refrain). Writing is an expression, reflecting on a process, not a work-in-progress.

Hey no need to get all Dungeons and Dragons on me here...

I know that some people don't write to prove anything. I write to write that's about it. Writing is always a work-in-progress. There's always something you need to improve on. Authors commonly re-write a piece over and over until they finally finnaaallly believe they are done. But even so they can always go back to it.

Dude, seriously, you're generalizing by saying that most fanfictions are about pairings. I don't think it's fair to dismiss fanficition altogether as a valid form of writing because of a little smut-shifting. There are lots of genuinly good fanfictions out there that are written very well by very good authors. There's alot of shifty stuff on fictionpress too, does that mean that all fictionpress writers write smut? Nuuuu.

Okay here's almost every fanfiction plot:

"Introduction of characters, tragic scene, blah blah blah ends up injured or whatnot wrong place at the wrong time. Some character "ACCIDENTALLY" brushes up against another character, chapters later they're doing it, a few chapters after they're talking about doing it, someone glomps someone, somewhere after that they stumble upon the ending"

2. fanfiction not being a valid form of writing because of the smut involved. So, it's ok for original fiction to have alot of smut, but not fanfiction? The romance section on this site seems to be pretty popular...

No it's not a valid form because it's basically pornography. I'm not about to discuss any further on that "issue" because that would involve descriptions that would sound awkward. The original fiction smut has a point except for the ones with "he was just a regular punk boy but when he ran into Jason things turned upside down SLASH!! M/M!!!" because it typically revolves around that there is no point but sex or lack there of. I don't read the romance section. I avoid the romance section. That is not the only reason fanfiction is not valid. I don't care if there's smut as long as it's relevant (which it usually isn't) and not just there for the authors pleasure (which they will deny).

Ball's in your court.

I hate basketball.

11/8/2006 #17
Burnt Bread
writing fanfiction can actually be detrimental. This because it's unoriginal and writers don't have to think much.

don't knock it until you try it. how easy is a good fanfiction to write? I guess you never know until you try. But I guess a fundamental difference in our arguments is that you believe that fanfiction does not deserve recognition, whereas i do. And I do think that writers who write fan fiction must think about characterisation more than those who write original fiction because their stories rely on the right sort of character portrayal whereas a original fiction character can be out of character, but still acceptable. However, neither your or my opinion on the amount of work people put into fanfiction vs original fiction is provable without extensive study so we can agree to disagree there or keep arguing.

To me, it's not a valid form of writing. Using someone else's characters IS pathetic, you aren't learning to shape your own characters, you're stealing someone else's.

Is taking a character from some book or story and slapping some other name and situation on them any less pathetic? I don't think that this argument is exclusive to fanfiction, and yet your apparent dislike for this is only directed towards those instances in fanfiction.

Great fiction is great fiction no matter if it's original or not original. Being a fanfic writer doesn't mean that the writer becomes immidiately redundant. Good plot, characterization and writing style can occur in fanfics too, if you can find it in you to believe that. What people's motices to write fanfiction? What are people's motives to engage in any fan behaviour?

Ahhhhh.... look at the time, i gtg rush out and pick up my little brother from school, but I will return to continue this interesting debate.

11/8/2006 #18
Charming Dice
Creepy little roleplays? That really is hilarious. I haven't laughed this hard in hours. I've tried roleplaying and it truly was creepy. I gave it a shot because it was a different form of writing, but I quit forever when some person wrote some sick sexual stuff about the use and abuse of tentacles.

Now don't worry McCaid, I doubt anyone will be offended. Then again, those angry anime kids may come across this forum. Watch out for those writers in the manga section. More often than not, they're just angry anime kids in disguise. I write manga sometimes, and I generally feel enraged when doing so.

Self insertion does happen quite a bit in fanfiction. Honestly, those stories crack me up. I just read one a few hours ago, and I had a grin on my face the whole time. I don't think it was intended to be comedy, though.

Ff.net is filled with flamers, but the flames aren't written very well. Sadly, those reviews are sometimes more entertaining than the story they're flaming. Some people do take fanfiction too seriously, but most people don't seem to. That site has a ton of writers, so if ten percent of them are A-holes, that makes everyone look bad.

Speaking of flames, I heard there was a flame war here a while back. Any truth to that?

11/8/2006 #19
Royal Bliss
Creepy little roleplays

I've seen some on the forums. Usually I stop talking then and just kind of pretend I didn't see it.

Watch out for those writers in the manga section. More often than not, they're just angry anime kids in disguise. I write manga sometimes, and I generally feel enraged when doing so

I sometimes read randomly from the Just-In section without looking at the genre and I've come across some manga. Usually I don't know how to respond other than thinking "how the hell do I pronounce that?". More than often you can tell who has written or still does write anime. Some people give clues in their fiction they are writing that isn't manga. Such as "random hugging", the names obviously, the males act very feminine and "cutesy"... I've never written manga before, once or twice a characters lastname could sound slightly japanese but it's not intended.

Speaking of flames, I heard there was a flame war here a while back. Any truth to that?

I think there was like awhile ago I wasn't too interested in knowing about it so I didn't pay attention though. I'm sure there was anime involved..

11/8/2006 #20
Midnight In Eden
don't knock it until you try it. how easy is a good fanfiction to write?

I did, it was easy, I was thirteen, it was buffy and I got lots of reviews, seemed okay. Tried turning back to fiction, I'd gotten lazy and it was difficult. Then I realised how crap the whole thing was. How pointless it was. I wrote because I wanted Angel and Buffy back together. Yup. I may not be an "expert" like you seem to be but I have tried it.

And you didn't answer my question!

What people's motices to write fanfiction? What are people's motives to engage in any fan behaviour?

I don't know, that's why I was asking you!

writers who write fan fiction must think about characterisation more than those who write original fiction because their stories rely on the right sort of character portrayal.

OH PLEASE. Like they're really worrying about characterisation that much. They take what they know from them, turn them into flat characters and shove them into a crappy situation. I really would love an example of a "good fanfiction" that isn't smut.

Is taking a character from some book or story and slapping some other name and situation on them any less pathetic? I don't think that this argument is exclusive to fanfiction, and yet your apparent dislike for this is only directed towards those instances in fanfiction.

Of course it is! I never said anything about that. It's essentially the same as fanfiction. However I've rarely seen examples of that, because most of those unoriginal people stick to writing fanfiction.

But I guess a fundamental difference in our arguments is that you believe that fanfiction does not deserve recognition, whereas i do.

Um, right. Why on Earth would you think it deserves recognition? Why?

I can't wait for your responses. In which you hopefully explain yourself better.

ps

eat fiction is great fiction no matter if it's original or not original. Being a fanfic writer doesn't mean that the writer becomes immidiately redundant. Good plot, characterization and writing style can occur in fanfics too, if you can find it in you to believe that.

yeah, show me great fanficiton. I'd love to see your definition of it.

11/8/2006 #21
Royal Bliss
And I do think that writers who write fan fiction must think about characterisation more than those who write original fiction because their stories rely on the right sort of character portrayal whereas a original fiction character can be out of character, but still acceptable.

Rarely do fanfiction writers think about that. They might look over it but it's mainly them bending it to go their way. I write original fiction and I'm constantly going back to how I wanted the character to be portrayed. If I write a scene and then read it over I will delete it or change it if a character is acting out of their shell. Excuses for fanfiction writers to do this is "___ was being random LOL ^_^!!!"

11/8/2006 #22
Burnt Bread
I hate basketball.

I meant tennis... ~_^

What people's motices to write fanfiction? What are people's motives to engage in any fan behaviour?

This is great. I can't keep a serious face in this conversation if I type words like 'motices'. I'm not sure what I meant by motice, but it was probably important. But I try to answer the question.

When people are passionate about something, they tend to want to engage with it more. For example, people who are crazy about anime want may want to extend it after the series is finished, hence fanworks. To be passionate about something enough to want to reproduce it is not a crime (unless you're reprodicing a crime).

I refute your opinion that all fanfiction does is flatten characters and put them in crappy situations, and I will provide you with an example: Aishuu's 'Something Wicked This Way Comes". Other than being well written, it also incorporates the characters with original ideas that build on and develope the original ones. It also blows most of the works on fictionpress completely out of the water. And I'm pretty sure there's no smut in there, but don't quote me on it.

I think fanfiction deserves recognition because of everything that goes into it. You wouldn't write a fanfiction about some story you didn't think was important. Would you have written about Buffy and Angel if you hadn't wanted them to be together? These sorts of dreams and hopes are fundamental in all fiction, and they can be found as regularly in fiction as well as in fanfiction. The only thing that really seperates fiction and fan fiction is that fanfiction is based on existing work. Every other area is free to vary.

If most of your arguments are centered around fanfiction being smutty and badly written, i would point out that there are some fanfics that arn't total crap so let's just say: if you came across a fanfiction that was a total work of genius, would you still be against them?

11/8/2006 #23
Midnight In Eden
Oh god it's anime. um I in no way support or enjoy anime (or manga. are they the same thing?). ever :) and I also can't find a link to that story.

AGAIN, I never said fictionpress was a beacon of amazing writing. It's not, there's plenty of crap here. But AGAIN, at least they're trying to write their own stories.

I'm slightly sick of this arguement because you will never believe that fanfiction (no matter how "good") is not really a valid form of writing and I will never believe that it is, once again no matter how "good" it is.

11/8/2006 #24
Burnt Bread
well, we agree to disagree then.
11/8/2006 #25
Burnt Bread 11/8/2006 #26
Royal Bliss
God I would type so much right now.
11/8/2006 #27
Royal Bliss
If most of your arguments are centered around fanfiction being smutty and badly written, i would point out that there are some fanfics that arn't total crap so let's just say: if you came across a fanfiction that was a total work of genius, would you still be against them?

Yes. Because it's still just a fan taking the characters and adding them to their own plot. The characters are still not their own creation. That's my biggest issue. They didn't create them themselves. I honestly don't care if it's good. Go put that plot to use with your own characters. No matter what they do to it you'll still be thinking about the original story/game/movie/show that the characters came from. It'll be biased everything is biased. If you like the show then you'll probably like it. If you don't like the show or fanfics you won't like it because then you'd be hypocritical. I don't like them in general.

11/8/2006 #28
Burnt Bread
If you like the show then you'll probably like it.

fans are pretty critical. I've liked alot of anime but not the fanfics.

11/8/2006 #29
Royal Bliss
I've liked alot of anime but not the fanfics.

Hmm I wonder why?.... because they're pretty much PORN?

11/8/2006 #30
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