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Lesbians in love, such a misunderstood topic in modern culture. It's not just about the color pink, or magical kisses in the rain. It's about two people in love who happen to be women. If you're a writer of femslash or simply a reader, stop in.
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Knightmare Elite
You've read them, possible even written a few. And yet they're a part of our literary arsenal. So what do love about a lesbian fiction and what pisses you off.

1) Personally I'm not really into the young student, female teacher/professor type stories. They just don't do anything for me, and there a TON of them. It just feels like beating a dead horse, almost as much as the obsession with catholic school girls.

2) Perfect world stories! I'm sure you're read at least one of these, or will stumble onto one. They're the stories were the author clearly pours their ideals and desires into the story. It's evident by how the main character and almost instantly get with her love interest, or if there is a conflict, there's a totally unrealistic resolve which conveniently ties up the story. Another trait is the characters are virtually immune to social judgment. Maybe it's just me, but I like gritty stories that reflect reality on some level.

3)Coming Out stories that end in either suicide, or the message that 'homosexuality' is WRONG. It feels like such a cop out.

I'm just bitchy today, but those are some of the things in lesbian fiction that bug me.

1/29/2007 #1
bloodyfangs
I also can not stand the whole teacher and young student thing. Maybe it’s because I have never had a crush on a teacher or maybe the theme is just over used. Who really knows…

I hate the stories that have a million and one love interest. One to three people is plenty but once you start making a story out of the main character being with four or more people just to get over the first person they have been with, you have just lost me. I don’t know maybe it’s because I am a hopeless romantic and love seeing main characters with their first love interest; to see them work through major conflicts and grow closer and closer together.

That’s about all that comes to mind at the moment.

1/29/2007 #2
ChocolateZombie
Yeah, Teacher/student stuff is really f###ed up. Anyways, I like to read fics that go into detail about how the couple first fell for each other before anything else. Since there are people who do that.
1/30/2007 #3
Knightmare Elite
I also hate when authors purposely put the word lesbian in the summary to lure you in, and you end up realizing it actually was a ploy which obviously worked. Usually in those stories the lesbianism is usually a severely under developed subplot brushed over in the first 2 chapters then slowly dissolves.

Another thing that really irritates me are stories with a 'lesbian' main character who ends up not being gay at all. They usually end up having the girl though though some cute little mishaps and disastrous dates, pretty much steering her on the 'straight' path towards that ideal boy/man that her life was missing all along. I'm sure those types of stories have their place, probably as a way of easier curious readers into lesbian fiction...maybe. But again maybe I'm just being bitchy, but I like my lesbian fiction with REAL lesbian characters that stay that way from start to finish.

2/1/2007 #4
Silentee
I have come to realize that most everything has been done before..and cliche..well they have lasted for a reason..and when done well..give an impact..but there is the rub.. "done well"

hard to find that here....I like the professor/student thing....if done well..but its usually not..and well most cliches are butchered again and again.

putting words in summaries to lure you in is just marketing to get hits..its cheap..and unfair..but very human..we can be nasty shallow creatures as a whole.

"maybe I'm just being bitchy, but I like my lesbian fiction with REAL lesbian characters that stay that way from start to finish." No, thats not too much to ask for.

2/4/2007 #5
all you need is oxygen
I think the teacher/student story is overused as well. But the one that irritates me most is where the whole story revolves around lesbian sex. For Pete's sake, can we not think of anything other than lesbian sex? I prefer femslash stories that have plots and actually talk about character emotions.
2/5/2007 #6
Silentee
well plot is a touchy subject..because most stories are lacking in them..and I mean all genres..thers nothing..and it drives me crazy...now I am all for smut..heh.. Ihave no problems with "blue" writing...but if someone is trying to pass off their stroy as anything but that...I get annoyed...just be honest..call a smut a smut and be happy..because it actually takes skill to write a good sex scene..especially between two women or men..all those pronouns get in the way.. ^^

Just once I would like to read a story were someone does not smell like strawberries..were they dont have to break the kiss for air..were they dont have to ask for a tongues entrance..were the guy in f/f is always the villian...these are the little things that would make me happy.

2/5/2007 #7
Knightmare Elite
Just once I would like to read a story were someone does not smell like strawberries..were they dont have to break the kiss for air..were they dont have to ask for a tongues entrance..were the guy in f/f is always the villian...these are the little things that would make me happy.

I do admit I've guilty of that many times. Though I guess it's because my writing on FP and what I keep in my personal writing folder both cater to different audiences. Basically my personal stuff I write for me, I think being more true to what I want to see without any type of restriction. As for my Fictionpress writing, it's a little neutered to gain a more general readership I supposed. So I do 'flower up' some of my stories a little. Though I think I went a bit too far in one of my stories since there's hardly a review without the word 'cute' in it.

But yeah plot really is iffy depending not only on the type of story, but how much semblance will your plot have to the characters motives/actions ...ie sexually oriented type stories.

And the whole man being the villian, that's something I've noticed for a long time. I always try and make my villians female. I do that because even though I'm writing lesbian fiction, I'm not writing women empowerment stories, they have a channel devoted to that....it's called Lifetime (vomits) I simply write about two people in love who both happen to be girls and go from there, eh but you always have critics I suppose.

2/5/2007 #8
Silentee
there is absolutely NOTHINg wrong with cuting up a story..or to making a moment tender..I am all for that..but..again..it can be done without the cliche..or make the cliche work....cold-hearted Beotch persona aside.. I am a big softee(tell anyone and I will kill you ^^) so a bit O' fluff is good..place and time depending...its just almost every love scene I have read..has one if not all three of the points I have made...so they kinda stand out and slap me in the face when reading...and again, not to say they can't be used..they just need to be done better.

I miss plot...I am a plot kinda gal...I know some stories dont have them..but I get all giddy when I find one.

women empowerment stories (shudders)I dont read for propaganda.. I read to find a story..with interssting characters..doing things..or not doing them..in interesting ways..if I wanted a message I call Western Union..

2/5/2007 #9
bloodyfangs
I dont read for propaganda.. I read to find a story..with interssting characters..doing things..or not doing them..in interesting ways..if I wanted a message I call Western Union..

I think the worst thing about clichéd is they don’t have a message. Or if they do it’s the same one…ya know what I mean? I want to be left looking at something from a new view point. I want to finish reading the story and learn about one of life’s hidden secrets…I understand that is a lot to ask from first time writes and hell I’m not sure if I could even pull it off… but none the less its what I look for in a story. So I guess I encourage people to use propaganda…so sue me… but with out some level of persuasion you can’t get the message across...and if your not trying to prove/teach something then why would you write in the first place…?

2/5/2007 #10
Knightmare Elite
It's more or less trying to put your personal signature into an already established and very accessible formula. It's hard enough trying to find your literary voice so to speak, but to actually carry it through your writing when crossing genres, and even following the cliched path is one of the true struggles of any writer no matter how experienced.

I think most beginning writers, when they see a cliched type stories, they think to themselves, 'this might be a great way to get my feet wet'. And that is what you write, but that being said a great majority of the authors here are teens in high school, so in all honesty what else to you expect them to write about? That's where that whole 'write what you know' mantra comes in.

There's no denying the fact that the average teen does live that cliched life. As such cliche stories on some level reflect upon the very lives of those who write them. Happy ever after stories are written through the ideals of the writer, high school drama are written through one's first actual romance as a freshmen...ect.

So most authors aren't necessarily trying to put a message into their writing, but it comes across the same since they're all retelling the same stories, their teenagers lives. (no offense to any teenagers here) but as superficial as 'The OC' is, that is what teens will mostly write about, and those are messages if any conveyed through thier efforts.

I think to those begining authors, it's not a cliche if they draw it from a personal experience. So that in turn asks a bigger question, isn't life in itself one big cliche? No matter how original or innovative a plot may be, it has some aspects that were pulled from everyday experiences. My head hurts...can't write anymore!

2/5/2007 #11
Silentee
"So I guess I encourage people to use propaganda…so sue me… but with out some level of persuasion you can’t get the message across...and if your not trying to prove/teach something then why would you write in the first place…?"

oops were at cross purposes with propoganda..I used the wrong word it seems..in saying propoganda..I meant a story with a message..not a method to get someone to read the story in the first place.

ok let me get back to the whole message thing...I guess the easiets way is to explain why I do art...me..I do it for the creation process...I dont have a message I want to get across...I just want to make something..or tell a story..and when I tell a story I am doing it to share..to entertain..to get people to feel a certain way(laugh..cry)..I guess I dont think beyond that point..lol..this is were I went head to head with the "serious" art students waaay back in college...I had nothing to prove or teach...art was just to create..writing was to feel...and we argued the value of that..as in my view they both are just as important as "art"

proving or teaching I guess happens as a side effect...now let me say this ...nothing wrong with the prove or teach method..as one of my fav authors does that..and the first book of hers I read..she wacked me upside the head..because I was so into the story and the characters..her message snuck up on me..and I enjoyed it greatly.

so now after all the rambling I have done..why write in the first place....I say that is all up to the author, not the reader.

2/5/2007 #12
bloodyfangs
so now after all the rambling I have done..why write in the first place....I say that is all up to the author, not the reader.

I think every writer has somthing in mind when they write...Even if its just pulling out an emotion to some subjuect (Which would be teaching-teaching to have an certian emotion torward that subjuect/making you look at it a new way.)

The only other form of 'art' I do is taking photos..not of people...but life...and all of it is meant to make people think. Oh and I make metal stuff and rings but I dont think you can put to much meaning into somthing like that...

2/5/2007 #13
bloodyfangs
There's no denying the fact that the average teen does live that cliched life. As such cliche stories on some level reflect upon the very lives of those who write them. Happy ever after stories are written through the ideals of the writer, high school drama are written through one's first actual romance as a freshmen...ect.

I'm not so sure about this one. My life is nothing like the OC or any other t.v. show. But at the same time I live a VERY different life then most so I guess I cant say much...but I highly doutb many teens can say they live a life like the OC (But then again I have only watched the OC once or twice...)But I do I agree with you when you say most teens only write about what they have been through or what they know of.

2/5/2007 #14
Knightmare Elite
Oh you're brought up a great debate I've had with a few artist friends of mine for years.

It's always about the ease of expression in a picture versus a story/poem/book whatever. I always felt a picture gains an immediate reaction and understand by first glance, or within a minute or so. You look at it, process it and understand the message or whatever in such a short time.

Now a book or story, that's something you really have to invest time into. And even worse, depending on the skill of the author, the message if any can go right over the reader's head. Not even that, to get even a fraction of enjoyability from a written work over a picture you really have to sit there reading and thinking, not to say you're not engrossed in the story and all, but from a standpoint of immediate first impression, you have a book insert vs a an all in one picture.

Sorry that was EXTREMELY off topic but the whole art thing always depresses me in how easier it is to absorb an entire painting vs a 200 page novel.

2/5/2007 #15
Silentee
I think most teens write about what they see on tv or in the movies..and what they would like life to be..or what they think it should be...thats the big problem..most dont write what they know.

I run into this at work all the time..percieved reality vs Actual reality..two very different things....and it bites me in the @$$ frequently.

and art is art..and you would be suprised how many folks would find meaning in your metal work...thats the thing about art..people find there own meaning..yeah you could put a message..but people will not be seeing it with your eyes..and will make there own call...

as for the emotions teaching...heh..yes it can be that way..but when trying to evoke an emotion..at times its not to make a point..only to make them feel..and Fang..we can dance this one for hours..lol ^^

2/5/2007 #16
bloodyfangs
as for the emotions teaching...heh..yes it can be that way..but when trying to evoke an emotion..at times its not to make a point..only to make them feel..and Fang..we can dance this one for hours..lol ^^

Lol I am aware both of these debates could go on forever and ever but I think the more people talk about it the more people understand it.

But as a side note- I dont think people should just write about what they know. I think thats one of the real problems. I also dislike it when people tell me they write about people they know...it just bugs me. I think people are lossing the creative side of things.

2/5/2007 #17
Knightmare Elite
I write about everything I don't know. That's one of the main reasons I started lesbian fiction. Then I started writing about cutting. That was one of the greatest challenges, emulating the midset of someone who does Self Injury. Instead of worrying myself into a migraine I completely created up my own reasoning for why a person would cut, and so far I've been successful. When I look back at my writing, I really have become a pretty good bullshitter. But I'm more comfortable writing about what I have little to no experience about, it works for me so, 'if it ain't broke...'
2/5/2007 #18
Silentee
one should not multitask..I did the there for their thing..I hate that..as bad a speller I am..thats unforgivable..makes me feel 4..and I can't blame my dyslexia for it..

ok were was I

"Lol I am aware both of these debates could go on forever and ever but I think the more people talk about it the more people understand it."

heh..good..I love the debate myself....since it des go so deep..and I do like to open eyes now and again.

the writing what you know thing..thats also a two sided debate..the simple answer again is personal choice..some people should stick with whatthey know..and sometimes thats not as simple as the folks in the neighborhood..but also what everyone knows and has experienced is different....however I do see the point of branching out and takig on new challenges..again thats a personal choice..a personal test.

going for it is a great attitude..no matter the talent..without ambition nothing happens

2/5/2007 #19
bloodyfangs
I just think people/writers have to be willing to grow. If you start out by writing about people you know and can pass it off then I think you should take the next step and create people you dont know. I'm all about giving it my all when I start something (hence the reason I am looking up stuff on grammar) and call me selfish but I kinda think everyone else should do the same (giving it their all)...or atleast have some kind of passion for making things better.
2/5/2007 #20
Silentee
I am supposed to be doing very productive things..lol

well in any creative enterprise you should give your all..why be creative half assed.... I see no sense in that.

but ok grammar just makes me irritable...but I agree its important and some really should make more of an effort to improve thier skills...but I have only shaky ground to walk on with that subject.

and I think all art...writing..painting..cooking..whatever should have passion...because to me its all about feelings..even when I paint for work..my passion is there..its not the same as what I do for me obviously..but my passion is expressed in wanting to do my best..makining it look as real as possible..no ego..just the feeling I have done what I feel is my best.

2/5/2007 #21
Knightmare Elite
I wish they gave the ability to move posts, this has gotten way off topic, but it is a very good debate. I shouldn't complain at least the forum is active.
2/5/2007 #22
Silentee
oops we have been chastised..lol..ahh welll in any discussion there tends to be multiple paths...its what helps make it interesting.
2/6/2007 #23
Knightmare Elite
I don't mind really, just saying I wish i could take those posts and plop them in a separate thread. But don't forget anyone is welcome to make their own threads, there's never enough discussions around here.
2/7/2007 #24
LEDlorien7
this is a question for Knightmare Elite, was the story with the reviews that all said "cute" the Valentines Day one? 'Cuz I love that story with a fiery passion that burns deep in my soul (I overuse that phrase waaaaay too much in conversation). I personally like cute things and I think there is nothing wrong with writing or reading a story that's obscenely cute.
2/17/2007 #25
LEDlorien7
Whew, that was quite a debate! (yes, I just read that entire thing) I wanted to get in on it. I love debates!

On writing what you know vs writing what you don't know:

I think there is middle ground. You shouldn't take people you know and just plop them into your writing, that's a total cop-out. On the other hand, I think it's alright to let real people inspire your characters. For beginners, it might be easier to write realistic characters if they're based on real people. I also think, however, that a really good writer can create completely original characters who are as real and three dimensional as anyone they know.

I'll admit, my writing is painfully lacking in characterization. It's something I need to work on.

2/18/2007 #26
Knightmare Elite
The making characters three dimensional is something nearly every author strives for. Especially those starting out, well I hope they do. I can't speak for most people, but I'm really picky about small details on my characters. There are so many times, the story has literally stopped mid-sentence while I had to research something for the character, and it's usually something so insignificant you'd never realize I spent nearly 30min -1hr trying to make it as casual as possible.

I think an example is on one of my stories, where the main characters goes to her girlfriend's house. When she arrives, her girlfriend is wearing this see-thru dress thingie, with red bikini underneath and heels. It took me about a half hour to create that outfit, looking at various pictures of women with that body type, and visualizing just how it would fit on her, and even how she'd stand. I think that entire scene was like a minute long, but I'm just a detail whore.

2/18/2007 #27
Silentee
well they do say the devils in the details..and yes makeing characters three D is critical..you want ..or really I want characters with some depth to them..not shallow cut outs.

and when you tell someone to write what they know..its for those starting out..let them begin with familiar territory..and expand from there.

2/18/2007 #28
bloodyfangs
Maybe I have such a problem with people writing about people they know because I never have. All my characters seem to be in my head playing out their part and I spend hours upon hours wondering what each of them would do in curtain situations….which may be my biggest fault of all because my main character/s seems to have bits and pieces of me and my history wrapped into them. I guess it makes me a hypocrite in away…but I guess its like raising a child -you pour some of your beliefs, judgments and knowledge into them forming them into the adults you want them to become…Although I guess there too people try to mold their children into celebrities.
2/21/2007 #29
Knightmare Elite
I don' think that makes you a hypocrite, I do that too. Almost all my characters have a little injection of my persona. We do that as authors, as much time as we spend developing and nurturing a characters, we at times lose ourselves in our creations, and if you go back you'll notice certain traits, desires or the like that your character shares with you. Trust me on that. I think I've spilled my parental issues way too much into my writing, but I really think that's a subconscious thing. (Note to self, make next story with stable family life!)
2/21/2007 #30
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